Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creation
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 91 of 1482 (782758)
04-28-2016 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by jar
04-28-2016 8:57 AM


Re: what Genesis 1 is all about.
I have reached a tentative conclusion on those issues but that may be better in another thread.
I'd be very interested in reading this...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 04-28-2016 8:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 04-28-2016 5:36 PM Aussie has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 1482 (782759)
04-28-2016 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by NoNukes
04-28-2016 1:51 PM


Re: Chronology?
The universe was created in 1:1, and then silently fell apart before 1:2? Where does that come from?
The idea is that the Garden of Eden story occurred first, during a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. Then god reset the earth and created a new male and female in his own image, which lead down the lineage to the Flood and on to today. There was some excuse about "Adam" in Gen 5 just meaning "a man" and totally not being the guy that was named Adam in Gen 2.
He's lining up Gen 2:4 with Gen 1 as both being in the same day that god created the heavens and the earth. And he's lining up Gen 5:1-2 with Gen 1:27 as being the same timeframe when God made male and female in his own image.
So the chronology would be as I wrote:
Gen 1:1
Gen 2:4 - Gen 4:24*
Gen 1:2 - Gen 2:3
Gen 5 onwards.
The problem that he never got around was that Gen 4:25-26 ends with:
quote:
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
While Gen 5 starts with:
quote:
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
So we'd have to have two different Adams, who both had sons named Seth who both had sons named Enos. I think he ended our last discussion with that not being impossible, so he was still right.
This time around though, he decided to just chop those last two verses off of his narrative and have Gen 4 end at verse 24*.
I was asking where the text said to do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by NoNukes, posted 04-28-2016 1:51 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by NoNukes, posted 04-28-2016 5:08 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 1482 (782766)
04-28-2016 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
04-28-2016 2:39 PM


Re: Chronology?
The idea is that the Garden of Eden story occurred first, during a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. Then god reset the earth and created a new male and female in his own image, which lead down the lineage to the Flood and on to today.
Right. I seem to recall you explaining some of that to me before. At least I remember the part about needing to move verses 4:25-26 because they were complete inconsistent with ICANT's favored narrative in their current location.
I was asking where the text said to do that.
I don't see ICANT spelling all of that stuff out here. Perhaps we are not ready for that yet? Because I know I would decide that I've heard enough.
I think he ended our last discussion with that not being impossible, so he was still right.
Isn't that what this thread is about. If there is any interpretation that can fit the premise of this thread, then ICANT is still right?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 2:39 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2016 2:44 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 1482 (782769)
04-28-2016 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Aussie
04-28-2016 2:34 PM


Re: what Genesis 1 is all about.
I posted "I have long been fascinated by two facts, that the younger story was placed first and that no attempt was made to make the two creation myths jib. I have reached a tentative conclusion on those issues but that may be better in another thread." but I will post a short summary here.
The Bible is as I have said an anthology of anthologies, a collection and accumulation of tales from evolving cultures and eras influenced by politics both local, regional and international. The stories themselves evolved as the cultures evolved from individual independent tribes to proto-States to Nations to several periods of being vassals and to the status of just one religion primarily located in one Roman Province.
For much of the history there were two separate nations claiming to worship the same god each considering themselves to be the One True Hebrew nation.
The same story (the flood myth as an example) would be slightly different in Israel and in Judah.
There was a period (the Davidic Period) when the two nations were under the same Monarch (much as England and Scotland under James I & VI, one monarch but still two nations). At times like that there there would be pressure to meld both traditions into one but as always, political reality would play a part in how successful any such attempt might be. We can see signs of such efforts in the two mutually exclusive flood accounts found the Genesis 6 & 7 where both versions got mushed together with no attempt to fix the contradictions but as alternate accounts.
So over time the different tales that were the product of the particular mythos of a given era and political reality became set as accepted scripture. Once a version became generally accepted no matter how crude the redacting might have been, it became increasingly hard to make further changes.
As long as everything was still separate tales and scrolls all was fine but fast forward. By the time of the Exile some of the scrolls had been designated as Canonical, the Torah. Most likely this is sometime between 700 and 600 BCE and that by around 400BCE was pretty much (at least the written Torah) as we see it today.
It is that period, the change from individual tales and scrolls that stood alone to an organized collection (the Anthology version 1) that the order was established with a younger tale placed as Genesis 1 and a much older tale placed as Genesis 2&3.
So why that order?
Well, the very idea of a Jewish, Hebrew identity was being threatened in the cosmopolitan multicultural environment that was the Exile. People were being accepted as never before and so the priesthood felt a need for revival, reformation and an increased emphasis on what being Jewish meant.
The concept of a sacred week, a day defined as beginning at sundown and running through to the next sundown, of six days of work and one Holy Day of rest, prayer and thanksgiving is central to much of Judaism, one of the things like circumcision that set them as a people apart. In addition, the supreme god described in the story, all powerful, sure, competent is a great introduction to the character of the God they were marketing.
But then they move to the god found in Genesis 2&3 where the basics for the society are outlined in the Just So Story and they add to the character. The god here is personable, having direct interaction with the creation, very human, approachable.
The two stories set as they are provide an introduction to the more complex nature of a god than either story alone as well as an introduction to the sacred week and an explanation of why society would be built on a moral framework. The two stories set one right after the other also set the stage for the continuing struggle between man and man and man and god that makes up so much of the rest of the Old Testament.
By the time Christianity got around to trying to create its own Canon about three centuries after Jesus' death much of the Old Testament, the historical basis for Christianity, had been set for almost a millennium.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Aussie, posted 04-28-2016 2:34 PM Aussie has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 95 of 1482 (782790)
04-29-2016 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by NoNukes
04-28-2016 2:14 AM


Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
Why is it that one self described expert fails to notice that even ancient folks had definite names for person, places and things?
I never said Biblical Hebrew did not have nouns that were names for persons, places and things which covers everything that requires a noun.
I did say I did not find anything about proper nouns in any of my grammar books.
And the only reference to 'proper noun' in your 4 web sites is the last one at wiktionary.org.
Moses did not have nouns all he had was names of people, places and things.
NoNukes writes:
Beyond that, I am sure everyone noticed that nothing you have posted refutes the point kbertsche actually made. Namely that the term day is used both to refer to the daylight of a day and to the entire 24 period including evening and morning.
Where is daylight mentioned in the Bible?
I will give you a little hint. You can not find it between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21.
The Hebrew word translated light is a feminine noun. Light is the name of a thing.
The Hebrew word translated day is a masculine noun. Day is the name of a period of duration.
NoNukes writes:
the entire 24 period including evening and morning.
According to Jewish tradition evening comes at 6 pm and morning come a 6 AM made no difference what the duration of that period was it was always 12 hours.
So from evening to the following morning would be 12 hours not 24.
If you conclude that the evening ended a light period that had lasted for 12 hours and then a dark period that ended with morning another 12 hours you could get a 24 hour day but no other way.
You have to go from evening to evening or morning to morning to get a light period and a dark period which would represent 24 hours.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 04-28-2016 2:14 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2016 12:50 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2016 1:00 AM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 1482 (782792)
04-29-2016 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICANT
04-29-2016 12:42 AM


did say I did not find anything about proper nouns in any of my grammar books.
Actually you did not say where you had searched. Again, saying that ICANT cannot find it does not mean jack. Perhaps you should not have tossed in that zinger that people were assuming ancient Hebrew was a modern language if the real issue is that you cannot find something. It is pretty clear that you were claiming that the rest of us were ignorant.
Moses did not have nouns all he had was names of people, places and things.
Names for people, places, and things are nouns. And probably proper nouns to boot. What Moses may have lacked was capital letters. Seriously, ICANT, please move on to some point. None of this discussion about formalities matters one wit. Genesis clearly uses the word day in more than one way. If there are no proper nouns, then your position is even more hopeless.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2016 12:42 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2016 2:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 97 of 1482 (782793)
04-29-2016 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by NoNukes
04-28-2016 2:18 AM


Re: The heavens and the earth
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
Unknown cause? Neither cause nor effect is described in the text.
Jeremiah gives the cause and effect.
quote:
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
God's fierce anger was the cause.
The effect was that the earth was without form and void.
The heavens had no light.
There was no man.
The birds of the heavens were fled.
The fruitful place was a wilderness.
All the cities were destroyed.
That sounds like a description of the condition of the earth in Genesis 1:1. 1:2.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : To correct typo.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by NoNukes, posted 04-28-2016 2:18 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2016 1:06 AM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 1482 (782795)
04-29-2016 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICANT
04-29-2016 12:42 AM


According to Jewish tradition evening comes at 6 pm and morning come a 6 AM made no difference what the duration of that period was it was always 12 hours.
So what period is an evening and a morning? The same as a morning and an evening? Do you have a point?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2016 12:42 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2016 3:04 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 1482 (782796)
04-29-2016 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by ICANT
04-29-2016 12:55 AM


Re: The heavens and the earth
That sounds like a description of the condition of the earth in Genesis 1:1.
Surely you meant to say 1:2, given that there is no description of condition in Genesis 1:1.
But regarding Jeremiah,
Perhaps you don't believe Jeremiah when he claimed that his description was of things to come and not of things past. Or perhaps there is even more of the Bible that supposedly took place on the Genesis 1:1 earth than just those parts you have mentioned so far. Or perhaps your argument is breaking under its own weight.
Any port in a storm I guess.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2016 12:55 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2016 3:35 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 100 of 1482 (782798)
04-29-2016 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by kbertsche
04-28-2016 7:28 AM


Hi kbertsche
I have a couple of copies of versions edited by different men.
But anybody that talks about Biblical Hebrew having vowels is somebody that I don't put much belief in what they have to say about anything about Biblical Hebrew.
I am also sure that Moses did not have a copy of Gesenius Hebrew Grammer.
In fact I am not even sure Moses knew what a noun was since the word did not exist until the fourteenth century BC.
As I said why do people try to make Biblical Hebrew into a modern language.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by kbertsche, posted 04-28-2016 7:28 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 101 of 1482 (782799)
04-29-2016 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Dogmafood
04-28-2016 8:39 AM


Re: Immutable word of God
Hi Proto
Proto writes:
And that is a fact. If we cannot see then we cannot see. Speculation, while useful, is a poor substitute for observation.
So somebody makes a bunch of assumptions and people come up with hypothesis which are taught as fact.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Dogmafood, posted 04-28-2016 8:39 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 102 of 1482 (782800)
04-29-2016 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by New Cat's Eye
04-28-2016 9:46 AM


Re: Chronology?
Hi Cat,
Cat writes:
Where does the text say to omit Gen 4:25-26 from the history of that day?
Moses did not divide Genesis into sentences, verses, or chapters.
That wasn't done until 1100 AD.
But why would Moses put those words in the place they are found.
We are at that time 7 generations from the man formed from the dust of the ground.
But if he did the Seth of Genesis 4:26 did not exist past day one in Genesis 1:5.
But where is the mention of a son born to the man and woman created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27? There is none, until you get to Genesis 5:3 and he has a son named Seth. This man has no son named Abel or Cain.
Cat writes:
So this is how it goes:
Gen 1:1
Gen 2:4 - Gen 4:24or26
Gen 1:2 - Gen 2:3
Then it goes to Gen 5?
The Bible text requires all the events which is the history of the day God created the heavens and the earth to take place prior to Genesis 1:2.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 9:46 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 103 of 1482 (782801)
04-29-2016 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by NoNukes
04-28-2016 1:51 PM


Re: Chronology?
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
There appear to be uncountable ways to look at the text,
There are many people who look at the verse in all kind of ways.
But that does not change what is written down in the Hebrew text.
It was written one specific way and has one specific message, not a dozen or more messages.
Explain why Genesis 1:1 is not a complete declarative statement of completed action.
NoNukes writes:
I think ICANT's reading comes from an attempt to manage some kind of consistency with science.
NoNukes I could care less whether the Bible is consistent with science.
In fact it is not.
God created the heavens and the earth.
The heavens and the earth did not begin to exist from some God particle that had no place to exist itself.
If you believe it did feel free to expound upon such a creation as creation is what we are talking about.
NoNukes writes:
Defending OEC based on a literal reading of the text requires a far greater straining against the text than does defending YEC.
Does Genesis 1:1 say that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth?
Does Genesis 2:4 say: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,".
These would be the things that follow as it does in all other places where "These are the generations" appear such as in Genesis 5:1.
That would mean that man was the first life form on earth. Gen. 2:7.
Which definitely does not agree with evolution.
It would also mean everything that took place in the following verses up to Genesis 1:2 took place in the day God created the heavens and the earth.
Explain where I mis-represent what the text says.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by NoNukes, posted 04-28-2016 1:51 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 104 of 1482 (782802)
04-29-2016 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by NoNukes
04-28-2016 5:08 PM


Re: Chronology?
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
Right. I seem to recall you explaining some of that to me before. At least I remember the part about needing to move verses 4:25-26 because they were complete inconsistent with ICANT's favored narrative in their current location.
It would not make any difference if they did belong there and they did have a son they named Seth. He would not have existed at Genesis 1:2 as he would have been part of the day God created the heavens and the earth.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by NoNukes, posted 04-28-2016 5:08 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2016 1:25 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 105 of 1482 (782803)
04-29-2016 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by NoNukes
04-29-2016 12:50 AM


Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
Names for people, places, and things are nouns. And probably proper nouns to boot. What Moses may have lacked was capital letters. Seriously, ICANT, please move on to some point. None of this discussion about formalities matters one wit. Genesis clearly uses the word day in more than one way. If there are no proper nouns, then your position is even more hopeless.
How did Moses have nouns when the word was not created until the 1400's BC?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2016 12:50 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2016 1:23 PM ICANT has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024