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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 909 of 1053 (768453)
09-11-2015 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 907 by ThinAirDesigns
09-11-2015 9:03 PM


Re: Igneous rock over sedimentary layers
Oh, and Hell Creek. Lots of dinosaurs beneath, including the T. Rex in which Schweizer found traces of probably blood and YECs interpreted as cells. Dated by lots of methods. Dalrymple has a table in "Radiometeric Dating Does Work" (yes, spelled wrong) on the NCSE site.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 907 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 09-11-2015 9:03 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 959 of 1053 (772127)
11-06-2015 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 955 by ThinAirDesigns
11-06-2015 9:44 AM


Re: Thanks for the reponses
Not totally. A chronology is constructed from multiple tree samples that overlap in time. They line up the rings between pairs of both by inspection and by a statistical technique called "wiggle matching". I can't explain it but it can match well even if some rings are missing.
It does use 14C in the process, but using dendrochronology to calibrate 14C isn't circular because wiggle matching looks at the wiggles in 14C dates, not the dates themselves.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 990 of 1053 (782313)
04-22-2016 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 974 by PaulK
04-21-2016 5:33 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
The little investigation that I have done suggests that they are probably including other formations, such as the St Peter Sandstone.
There was a long discussion on the St. Peter over at Talk Rational. There was a YEC map (IIRC from Snelling) that tremendously exaggerated the extent of it. But it still wasn't even close to spanning continents. I'll see if I have time to dig it up a little later.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 991 of 1053 (782314)
04-22-2016 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 977 by edge
04-21-2016 5:54 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
One of the guys at TR dug up a cross-section map of the St. Peter, advertised by YECs as having incredible uniformity. There's millions of distinct and different layers.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 1002 of 1053 (782344)
04-22-2016 11:25 AM


From The St. Peter Sandstone | The Institute for Creation Research, John Morris' map of the St Peter:
Which seems to include any roughly contemporaneous sandstone, because the St. Peter definitely does not go onto the Canadian Shield. From Just a moment...:
And from High-Resolution Sequence Stratigraphic Analysis of the St. Peter Sandstone and Glenwood Formation (Middle Ordovician), Michigan Basin, U.S.A., a cross section:
{In preview the images show for an instant and then disappear. Percy, WTF?}
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1030 of 1053 (783196)
05-04-2016 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1025 by ThinAirDesigns
05-03-2016 4:11 PM


Re: CRSQ article sought
You could try contacting him.
quote:
info@biblicalchronologist.org (Access code required; see below.)
NOTE 1: To reach us by e-mail you must include the following access code in the subject field of your e-mail: BC7946.
NOTE 2: Questions to Dr. Aardsma thought to be of general interest and benefit to others may be posted together with their responses from Dr. Aardsma in the Correspondence section of this web site. Privacy of the sender will be preserved by using first names or abbreviated last names only. If you wish your correspondence not to become public, please state so when you send it.
{ABE} Whoops, looks like you've tried that.
The Biblical Chronologist probably contains much of the material from that paper.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1041 of 1053 (784549)
05-19-2016 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1040 by ThinAirDesigns
05-19-2016 10:14 AM


Re: Argonne paper sought
From fkuechmann@earthlink.net Sat Mar 17 23:51:53 2001
Path: newscene.com!newscene!newscene!novia!newsfeed.stanford.edu!ediacara.org!there.is.no.cabal
From: fkuechmann@earthlink.net (F.C. Kuechmann)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: As the Cretin Sqirms
Date: 17 Mar 2001 23:51:53 -0500
Organization: Brotherhood of Fratricidal Anarchists
Lines: 220
Approved: robomod@ediacara.org
Message-ID: <1eqflo9.sg4erz5e4gamN%fkuechmann@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: darwin.ediacara.org
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.6
X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:51:44 PST
Xref: newscene.com talk.origins:840548
Cretin Comedy: As the Cretin Sqirms
by F.C. Kuechmann
"...accepting a billions-of-years time-span for creation ...
undermines the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Creator of
the world .... it turns the whole logic of the Gospel upside
down, by putting the effects of the Curse before the Fall.
Death, thorns, cancer, suffering and bloodshed millions
of years before sin must be accepted if the fossils were
laid down before people were created. Such thinking
twists the Bible into foolish self-contradiction, because
it would put death, the last enemy into a creation which
God calls very good." -- Carl Wieland
Cretins...er, creationists...sometimes display an almost childish delight while belaboring any perceived or imagined contradiction, inconsistency or incompleteness in "evolutionist" publications (1). At the same time the YECs studiously ignore their own inconsistencies, contradictions and outright falsehoods.
When cornered despite their best efforts at evasion the Creation Ex Nihilo response is commonly to grab the fig leaf that it is a "family magazine" rather than a technical journal. The philosophy appears to be that it is permissible to mislead and deceive those sheep too stupid or lacking requisite baclground knowledge to comprehend that they're being taken for fools.
Well-known YEC [and AIG CEO] Carl Wieland parades a wide array of dishonest cretin techniques in his article titled "The earth: how old does it look?" in *Creation Ex Nihilo* 23(1):8-13, December 2000 - February 2001 and featured, like much of Carl's drivel, on the AIG web site.
The article is essentially yet another rehash of common YEC "evidences" for a young earth [with much of its material lifted almost verbatim from an earlier Wieland masterpiece]. -- all of which have been repeatedly discredited by the practicioners of genuine science [as opposed to Wieland's undisguised religion evidenced by the above indentd passage -- evolution is wrong because it puts the punishment (death and disease) before the crime (Adam's sin)].
Of primary interest here is item 4a in the good doctor's trite list of discredited young earth "evidence" -- Coal formation.
Argonne National Laboratories have shown that heating wood
(lignin, its major component), water and acidic clay at
150*C (rather cool geologically) for 4 to 36 weeks, in a
sealed quartz tube with no added pressure, forms
high-grade black coal.4
Compare the above to the text and Footnote 9 in Wieland's earlier petite opus titled "The Lost Squadron" [*Creation ex nihilo* (Vol 19 #3: 10-14, Jun-Aug 1997) ]--
The original article text referencing the footnote says
'Millions of years' are casually tossed around so often
that we unconsciously perceive all natural changes as
taking long timespans. That is why many are 'amazed' to
hear of facts like 180 metres (600 feet) of layered
sedimentary rock built up in months after the Mt. St
Helens May 18, 1980 eruption.7 Or when hearing of real
precious opal formed in months,8 or coal from simple
heating of wood in 28 days.9
And the footnote itself originally read
Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood,
water and acidic clay, and heated in a sealed container
(with no added pressure) at 150 C for 28 days, and
obtained high-grade black coal.
The text on the AIG web site has been changed to read "in mere months" in place of "in 28 days" and the footnote has been expanded to include an interesting array of fig leaves. Here is the current fooitnote 9 --
These researchers at Argonne National Laboratories in the
US combined wood, water and acidic clay, and heated in a
sealed container (without oxygen, and no added pressure)
at 150 oC for 2-8 months. [Ed. Note: Or to be more precise
than was necessary in a family magazine, the reaction
included the major wood stiffener, lignin; other reactions
contained the other major wood component, cellulose. So
the principle is the same. They are hydrothermal
reactions, hence the explanation in the magazine that
water was an ingredient -- although obviously no
scientific abstract would bother stating it -- and an
essential one. See E. Pennisi, "Water, water, everywhere",
*Science News* 143:121-5, 20 Feb. 1993]
In some of the longer runs (still far, far less than
millions or even thousands of years!) obtained material
which had the infrared spectra like those of "high rank
coal".
In all cases the information is attributed to the article "Artificial coalification study: Preparation and characterization of synthetic Macerals" by Ryoichi Hayatsu, et. al., in *Organic Geochemistry*, Vol. 6, pp 463-471, 1984.
The contradictions and inconsistencies amongst the three passages are obvious. "28 days" is not the same as "4 to 36 weeks" or "mere months", and "wood" isn't "lignin" any more than "water" is "hydrogen". By Wieland's standards we can deem his "without oxygen" statement to be false, since each water molecule contains as atom of oxygen, therefore water is the same as oxygen, and Carl insists that water is an essential part of the reaction.
The [Hayatsu] article, in fact, describes testing with several materials including lignin and lignin/cellulose [the major components of wood], and heating durations ranging from 30 minutes to 8 months. None of the intervals was close to the 28 day figure given by Wieland - the closest was 60 minutes, 2nd closest 2 months. None of the tests used water - most involved mixtures of 4 g activated clay and 2 g lignin, both finely powdered, in sealed glass tubes which were either evacuated or the air replaced with nitrogen.
They obtained not "high-grade black coal" [anthracite], but "an insoluble material resembling low rank coals" for the shorter intervals, and a material somewhat resembling slightly higher grade coal [vitrinites] for longer times.
Wieland seems to be referring to "lignin" as "wood" [primarily lignin and cellulose combined] and justifying it via the fig leaf that cellulose was used in some of the short-term reference experiments that demonstrated no coalification catalized by acidic clay. This fig leaf, together with its "family magazine" companion, is displayed in the revised footnote 9 --
...to be more precise than was necessary in a family
magazine, the reaction included the major wood stiffener,
lignin; other reactions contained the other major wood
component, cellulose. So the principle is the same.
In fact cellulose, if present, prevents the coalification from taking place. So the principle is *not* the same
In the traditional "buried peat bog" hypothesis of coal formation denounced by YECs as "unbiblical", the cellulose is consumed by anerobic bacteria before coalification. The YEC "Noachian deluge" scenario offers no explanation of the fate of the cellulose, and YECs like Wieland seem unaware that one is required.
Wieland's source for the "4 to 36 weeks" figure is as mysterious as his source for "28 days". The longest test period descrijbed in Ryoichi Hayatsu's article is given as 8 months. If we allow 4 weeks [28 days] per month, 8 months is 32 weeks. If we consider a month to be 30 days instead of 28, 8 months is still only about 34 weeks.
The "water" assertion is justified by this fig leaf in the revised footnote 9 --
They are hydrothermal reactions, hence the explanation in
the magazine that water was an ingredient -- although
obviously no scientific abstract would bother stating it
-- and an essential one. See E. Pennisi, "Water, water,
everywhere", *Science News* 143:121-5, 20 Feb. 1993
In other words, since virually everything on earth contains at least small amounts of water, it is accurate to list water as a major ingredient of the experiment. The original footnote 9 reads
Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood,
water and acidic clay...
Which at the very least implies that more than residual trace amounts of water were employed. And the statement that
water was an ingredient -- although obviously no
scientific abstract would bother stating it
is an evasion worthy of an award. The abstract doesn't bother with it, nor does the article itself. I think Herr Wieland is attempting a snowjob via minutae.2
The "high grade black coal" of the original "Lost Squadron" article has become, in the revised version, something quite different --
In some of the longer runs (still far, far less than
millions or even thousands of years!) obtained material
which had the infrared spectra like those of "high rank
coals".
Here, in a fashion all too typical of YECs who attempt to warp legitimate research into supporting their biblical literalist obsessions, Carl ignores the substantial difference between "high grade black coal" and a soft brownish material with an infrared spectrum resembling that of high grade coal that was actually obtained at Argonne. And in the later article "The earth: how old does it look?" in *Creation Ex Nihilo*, the "high grade black coal" nonsense is repeated. What a hoot this guy is!
Given the gross misrepresentation of the Argonne research, it is reasonable to conclude that famous Australian YEC Dr Carl Wieland MD has either never read and/or understood the article he has now cited at least twice, or he is simply pulling numbers and facts out of his hat. His "no scientific abstract" statement suggests that is all he's seen -- an abstract -- and he's infering or hallucinating the erroneous and misleading details. In any case he has strengthened his position as the YEC court jester and given the rest of us a few additional laughs.
1 In their stated preference for "infallible scripture" over "fallible science" they tie themselves to the superstitions of Middle Eastern desert nomads of three millenia past.
2 Perhaps the good doctor can tell us what happens to water in a vacuum [or, have you ever had freeze-dried coffee?]
Edited by Admin, : Add indent codes around the excerpted sections.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-19-2016 10:14 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 1046 of 1053 (784616)
05-20-2016 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by jar
05-20-2016 8:40 AM


Re: Argonne paper sought
MIT has the journal and will email a PDF (not OCR'd) for $20. Journal Articles & Conference Papers Order Form, Pricing and turnaround times. Should someone take this route I'll be glad to OCR it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by jar, posted 05-20-2016 8:40 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 1048 of 1053 (784635)
05-20-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1047 by ThinAirDesigns
05-20-2016 9:39 AM


Re: Argonne paper sought
One of your local libraries may be able to get an interlibrary loan from MIT or someone who has it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1047 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-20-2016 9:39 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
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