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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 181 of 1864 (781924)
04-10-2016 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by New Cat's Eye
09-04-2014 1:59 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
jar writes:
What, other than marketing, does prayer or fasting add?
sacrament
a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular.
(in the Roman Catholic and many Orthodox Churches) the rites of baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, ordination, and matrimony.
(among Protestants) baptism and the Eucharist.
CatSci writes:
ZOMG! HOW CAN YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE ANY OF THAT STUFF!?
Extraordinary Faith requires an extraordinary Creator! Either that or I am unknowingly lying.
jar writes:
Jesus seems to agree with Ringo, not you.
Cat Sci writes:
Day in. Day out.
Tell me about it! Sometimes I think I should just give up and let the other guy win the debate. Then Jesus and I can go and actually do something without need of any money,fame, or recognition.
I'll be honest with everyone though. I don't have enough faith to do what Jesus did. Does He expect me to try and do for the the least of these even over and above having a job, saving for retirement, and browsing the internet??
I fall far short of what He expects.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-04-2014 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2016 7:48 AM Phat has replied
 Message 184 by jar, posted 04-10-2016 8:25 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 182 of 1864 (781928)
04-10-2016 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Phat
04-10-2016 6:38 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
sacrament
a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular.
Isn't this precisely what the young rabbi was preaching against?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Phat, posted 04-10-2016 6:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 04-10-2016 7:49 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 183 of 1864 (781929)
04-10-2016 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by AZPaul3
04-10-2016 7:48 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
well yes and no. He did advocate Holy Communion. He himself was the outward visible sign.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2016 7:48 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 184 of 1864 (781930)
04-10-2016 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Phat
04-10-2016 6:38 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
the question was...
quote:
What, other than marketing, does prayer or fasting add?
... but you replied only by posting one of the definitions of a sacrament.
How does that answer the question?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Phat, posted 04-10-2016 6:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 04-10-2016 9:21 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 185 of 1864 (781932)
04-10-2016 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
04-10-2016 8:25 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Im still thinking. (I need to read The Gospels again)
My gut feeling, however, is that since prayer and fasting was done by Jesus, its also recommended for us. That being said, I agree with you in that its not an absolute prerequisite to going out and doing for the least of these.
Prayer allows us to clear our minds of the lusts of the eye, lusts of the flesh, and pride of life that we all get.
Fasting also reminds us that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 04-10-2016 8:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 04-10-2016 9:49 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 1864 (781933)
04-10-2016 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Phat
04-10-2016 9:21 AM


the "Man does not live by bread alone" con
Let's head back towards the Trinity maybe but first a comment about that last quote mine.
Phat writes:
Fasting also reminds us that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
That is one of the greatest marketing scams used by Christianity. It is used solely as a marketing tool and serves no other purpose than provide an excuse for not doing what Jesus said we should do.
That quote is just the snake-oil salesman's pitch from the back step of the medicine wagon while the shills in the audience shout out the amens and hallelujahs. It's used only as a preface to a sales pitch and never before actually telling folk that it really is their problem, that they caused and that they are charged to solve.
Fasting should remind us of what it feels like to be hungry, to create a bond of empathy between our fat fed selves and those that do not get bread. It should show us that even every word that proceeds from the mouth of God is no substitute for bread.
Now maybe back to the Trinity; the Great Inscrutable.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin: then ------> than

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 04-10-2016 9:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2016 1:21 AM jar has replied
 Message 192 by Phat, posted 04-15-2016 10:46 AM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 187 of 1864 (781937)
04-10-2016 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
04-09-2016 2:56 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Jesus fasted and prayed often. So why do we think we can turn off the NFL game, grab a bag of chips and a hot dog, then run out the door to go volunteer at the shelter for an hour before picking up the kids from soccer...and think that we are doing like Jesus taught?
quote:
Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.
Jesus hung out with publicans and sinners. Chances are He watched the 1st century equivalent of football and ate the 1st century equivalent of chips and hot dogs. He may or may not have had kids to pick up.
But He definitely did "volunteer at the shelter". So yes, that would be doing like Jesus taught.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 04-09-2016 2:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 188 of 1864 (781938)
04-11-2016 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
04-10-2016 9:49 AM


Re: the "Man does not live by bread alone" con
Fasting also reminds us that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
That is one of the greatest marketing scams used by Christianity. It is used solely as a marketing tool and serves no other purpose than provide an excuse for not doing what Jesus said we should do.
My personal experience is that fastening does provide me with some extra amount of focus when accompanied by a dedicated period of Bible study or even planned acts of charity. And as far as a marketing tool, given that I would perform a fast by myself without any sharing outside of my spouse, and that no one would know I was doing it I don't know what marketing result would come from such my doing such a thing.
I acknowledge that I may have missed your point. I agree that the Bible verse cited by Phat above is not really a recommendation to fast. But on the other hand, Jesus himself did mention the effectiveness of fastening directly, so there is no need to rely on a misinterpretation.
In any event, fasting isn't a central teaching, in my opinion. If you don't do it, or don't see the benefit, that's certainly not something I'd find unusual.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 04-10-2016 9:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 04-11-2016 9:01 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 189 of 1864 (781940)
04-11-2016 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by NoNukes
04-11-2016 1:21 AM


Re: the "Man does not live by bread alone" con
The issue is not fasting itself but rather how that verse is used so often in the Christian Cult of Ignorance. As Phat used it the implication is that words are as good as food. Too often I hear Christians use that verse when they are challenged for not giving aid.
Fasting itself can be very useful but it cannot replace bread. Give a hungry man a verse and he will still be hungry.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2016 1:21 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by NoNukes, posted 04-11-2016 4:30 PM jar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 1864 (781942)
04-11-2016 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by jar
04-11-2016 9:01 AM


Re: the "Man does not live by bread alone" con
Fasting itself can be very useful but it cannot replace bread. Give a hungry man a verse and he will still be hungry.
Okay jar. That one got a smile out of me!! And I needed one today, very badly.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 04-11-2016 9:01 AM jar has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 191 of 1864 (782068)
04-15-2016 7:50 AM


Of course the Trinity is a reality. Anyone wanting to start a new religion would probably never have as a central teaching something so objectively problematic as a doctrine of a three-one God.
But the Trinity is Someone man can experience and experience forever. Yet man can hardly explain. Not being able to fully explain something is not an impediment to a person experiencing and enjoying something.
The skeptical assume that a Christian's failure to explain fully how God could be three-one means the truth of such a concept is not real. That is the assumption. "Oh, God is mysterious. Oh, God is a wonderful mystery. Why, that must mean that your God is not real. Everyone knows that what you experience you can always explain."
There is no need for this assumption. Even in the natural life there are some matters which men enjoy but find it very difficult to explain.
We experience gravity. We benefit from gravity. Gravity is hard to explain. Try explaining the curvature of space - time. Sure, you can talk a lot about it. I doubt anyone really understands how space could be curved. And the people I push on it often dazzle you with mathematical speak as a smoke screen.
But a child knows about falling and something about gravity. The three-oneness of God is a wonderful mystery that man can, and even must experience and enjoy.
God is the Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Spirit.
Ultimately God is for man to experience.
" The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (Eph. 13:14)
That verse is an encouragement to the believers to be occupied with the enjoyment of the mysterious three-one Divine Being.

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 04-15-2016 10:49 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 04-15-2016 11:52 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 207 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-22-2016 1:07 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 192 of 1864 (782073)
04-15-2016 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
04-10-2016 9:49 AM


The Great Inscrutable
jar writes:
Now maybe back to the Trinity; the Great Inscrutable.
Gotta look that one up...
jaywill writes:
Of course the Trinity is a reality. Anyone wanting to start a new religion would probably never have as a central teaching something so objectively problematic as a doctrine of a three-one God.
But the Trinity is Someone man can experience and experience forever. Yet man can hardly explain. Not being able to fully explain something is not an impediment to a person experiencing and enjoying something.
I need to study the history of this doctrine before I comment on it professionally--but on a personal note, I find it overwhelming to imagine the Creator of all seen and unseen...and of the fact that I live on a dust speck of a planet --made possible by a friendly distance Sun--among an estimated one hundred billion stars(suns)--in a galaxy among an estimated one hundred billion galaxies. That such a Creator would even acknowledge me and my whining is unfathomable. Jesus Christ makes it easier to comprehend on a one on one man on man basis. And the concept of the Holy Spirit also makes it easier to function on a day to day level secure in the belief that Gods presence and comfort (based on His love for us) is always with me.
Of course the counter-argument asks why a Creator of all seen and unseen would pay any particular attention to one dust speck out of infinite possibilities.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 04-10-2016 9:49 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 12:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 214 by Stile, posted 08-15-2016 2:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 193 of 1864 (782074)
04-15-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by jaywill
04-15-2016 7:50 AM


Work It Because He Is Worth It
" The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (Eph. 13:14)
jaywill writes:
That verse is an encouragement to the believers to be occupied with the enjoyment of the mysterious three-one Divine Being.
Yet are we expected to simply enjoy the presence of such a Being or are we expected to joyfully put in work for Him?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 7:50 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 11:55 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 194 of 1864 (782079)
04-15-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by jaywill
04-15-2016 7:50 AM


jaywill writes:
Anyone wanting to start a new religion would probably never have as a central teaching something so objectively problematic as a doctrine of a three-one God.
On the contrary, objectively ridiculous doctrines encourage faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 7:50 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 195 of 1864 (782080)
04-15-2016 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
04-15-2016 10:49 AM


Re: Work It Because He Is Worth It
quote:
Yet are we expected to simply enjoy the presence of such a Being or are we expected to joyfully put in work for Him?
The work is His work. It is Christ living in us. The work is by His life, by His power, according to His will and guidance and by His grace.
Notice that Paul said it was the grace of God which was in him which caused him to labor more abundantly than all the apostles.
" ... the grace of God unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10)
He labored (worked) more abundantly than even the twelve apostles. Yet it was not due to him. The grace of God that was with him empowered him.
I would like you to compare that passage with another. The passage above says "Not I, but the grace of God." While this next passage says in essence "Not I but Christ".
" I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (See Galatians 2:20)
This is Christ living in Paul.
" For me to live is Christ ..." (Phil. 1:21)
"When Christ our life is manifested ... " (Col. 3:4)
This is Christ laboring and working through Paul.
This is Paul living Christ.
This the work of God flowing from the indwelling Christ in Paul.
This is Paul living a mingled life incorporated with the resurrected Christ Who lives in Paul.
Paul lives and Paul works and Paul labors by FAITH in the indwelling Christ who is one with him.
" .. it is not longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me;
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
I do not nullify the grace of God ..." (See Gal. 2:20-21)
When you read me write about the ENJOYMENT of God, that ENJOYMENT includes the Triune God working and laboring in the Christian. First we must learn to live in the sphere and realm of Christ. Then more and more of what we do will be by the grace of Christ living one with us.
In this experience Paul said that he did not render ineffective or vain the grace of God.
"I do not nullify the grace of God ..."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 04-15-2016 10:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 04-15-2016 12:40 PM jaywill has replied

  
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