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Author Topic:   Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1471 of 1639 (780758)
03-20-2016 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1462 by Faith
03-20-2016 12:43 AM


Re: Islam's agenda
Faith writes:
What an utterly evil thing to say.
That you express little human compassion and seem most interested in remaking the world in the image of fundamentalist Christians? That's just an accurate characterization.
I'll take Jews or Hindus or Asians any day and you say it's nothing but racial prejudice that I consider Muslims dangerous to the nation because of Islam's texts which inspire suicide bombings and other forms of murder of "infidels" and the endless ambition to take the entire world for Allah? (I'm not thinking of me in particular at all, I'm thinking of the good of the nation and everybody in it).
What I *did* say was that the particulars of the prejudice vary - I didn't say yours was racial prejudice, though if prodded to be more specific I guess I would say that yours seems more a religious prejudice.
But obviously you are so biased by PC the only thing you are capable of is accusing me of racism like all the leftists.
I didn't accuse you of racism. I accused you of prejudice.
What I'm actually doing is expressing concern and compassion toward my fellow man. It's just the way I feel and has nothing to do with PC or being a leftist (which I'm not). I think that instead of maintaining the long immigration waits and quotas for the war torn Syrian region that their immigration applications should be expedited (that doesn't mean rubber stamped). That's what we should have done for the Jews during WWII, and it's what we should be doing for the Syrians now. And the Iraqis, too, given how we wrecked their country and all.
Your concerns about Muslim violence are well founded, as I said back in Message 1398, but truly sincere Christians would be working hard at finding ways to admit victims of the violence instead of concluding none can be trusted and erecting barriers.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1462 by Faith, posted 03-20-2016 12:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(5)
Message 1472 of 1639 (780767)
03-20-2016 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1460 by Faith
03-19-2016 3:12 PM


Re: Do you have evidence Faith?
Faith writes:
ringo writes:
You haven't given the slightest reason for me to be afraid of my Muslim neighbours.
Great. Love them, bless them, pray for them, have them over to dinner.
And in Message 1466
Faith writes:
They are his neighbors, not mine...
Jesus said, in the parable of the Good Samaritan:
quote:
Luke 10:36-37 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
Faith writes:
And who says I don't act as I preach anyway?
You're preaching against all Muslims, including my good neighbours (who are also your own). I hope you're not practicing what you preach.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1460 by Faith, posted 03-19-2016 3:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1473 of 1639 (780781)
03-20-2016 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1468 by Hyroglyphx
03-20-2016 3:12 AM


I don't know, Faith. Seems like the last time you turned the other cheek was to spit on someone behind you. Just an observation.
You are right that I don't turn the other cheek as I should. When insulted I get riled instead.
However, that IS a personal remark instead of a comment on the subject, and it IS against the rules.
I don't consider trying to give the facts about Islam in the teeth of all the objections that are thrown at me here to be spitting on anyone. The denials of what I know about Islam and am trying to get across here are amazing. It's like trying to prove that the teddy bear everybody is cuddling is in fact a grizzly. They'll deny it and deny it until the whole country is being eaten up by grizzlies and you're still calling them teddy bears.
ABE: I usually try to make a distinction between the ideology and the people, since in many cases the people don't follow the violent parts of the religion, so should have said it's Islam the ideology that's the grizzly bear, not the people.
I just wanted to say that much. I am leaving EvC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1468 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-20-2016 3:12 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1474 of 1639 (780784)
03-21-2016 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1473 by Faith
03-20-2016 10:53 PM


You are right that I don't turn the other cheek as I should. When insulted I get riled instead.
We all fall short of glory of God.
However, that IS a personal remark instead of a comment on the subject, and it IS against the rules.
I feel just awful about it...
I don't consider trying to give the facts about Islam in the teeth of all the objections that are thrown at me here to be spitting on anyone. The denials of what I know about Islam and am trying to get across here are amazing.
No one here is defending Islam, lol. We all are in agreement that it's a piece of trash, backwards religion. We are just pointing out that you tend to paint with a very broad brush and tend to make exaggerated claims. That you interpret this as "defending Muslims," or whatever, is your own failing.
I am leaving EvC.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1473 by Faith, posted 03-20-2016 10:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1475 of 1639 (780824)
03-22-2016 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1465 by Faith
03-20-2016 2:35 AM


Re: Islam's agenda
Your lack of selfawareness continues to astonish me. You resort to exactly what you accuse others of doing. Calling you out on your hypocrisy is not an ad hominem. Maybe you should actually try to figure out what an ad hominem is before you accuse others of using it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1465 by Faith, posted 03-20-2016 2:35 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(4)
Message 1476 of 1639 (780830)
03-22-2016 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1475 by Theodoric
03-22-2016 3:14 PM


Re: Islam's agenda
Currently the US Muslim population is about 1% of the total US population. By 2050 that is projected to grow to about 2%. Such number hardly appear a threat to take over the US through Population growth.
BUT, exit polling seems to indicate that US Muslim citizen voters (over 70%) strongly support liberal and Democratic candidates.
Muslim US citizens range from highly religious to secular.
Muslim US citizens tend to be more highly educated than the general population.
Over 70% of the Muslims in the US are citizens.
Between 1/5th and 1/3rd of Muslims in the US are Afro-Americans.
Arabs (kinda like Jesus) and South Asians also make up a large percentage.
2/3rds of Arab Americans are Christians.
The largest number of mosques, Islamic schools, and organizations in the various states are in California followed by Texas and then New Jersey.
Perhaps THAT is why Trump and the Neo-Fascists fear US Muslim citizens.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1475 by Theodoric, posted 03-22-2016 3:14 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(4)
Message 1477 of 1639 (780924)
03-27-2016 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Faith
03-15-2016 3:33 AM


Re: Islam's agenda
I'll admit that once again I trusted my sources too readily, but nevertheless I still believe that the truth is on their side because I've read up on Islam myself and know that they will rise up against the west in any way possible whenever possible because taking the world for Allah is their objective, even if it takes a long time, and destructive behavior fits right in to that agenda.
This is also the Christian agenda, it's built into the religion from the outset. Given how much influence Christianity had on the formation of Islam, it's hardly surprising to see it went the same way. It had proven a successful way to spread a religion already, after all.
Political Correctness IS the correct explanation for all the gyrations that go into covering up any crime or fault of Muslims or any outgroup, and France does seem to have that attitude built into its treatment of crimes, that's why it's so hard to find out anything about the perpetrators for sure.
So when people do it for Christians, is that Politically Correct too?
What is it when Muslim commits a crime and they get lambasted as a terrorist or as someone who committed the crime because of their religion even when that's not been established?
Do you remember hearing about how the Jews had problems in Europe and Soviet states? Do you remember how it started? It started with people blaming the Jews for increasingly absurd things. Things ramped up and violence and murder erupted.
This is not an exceptional thing. It happens all the time. A minority group is scapegoated, and individual members of that group are subsequently targeted for criminal acts.
So while there is plenty to criticize in Islam, one has to be careful not to fuel the fires of hatred that humanity loves so much.
We see you take any example of a Christian suffering as 'persecution'. Are they denying healthcare to a vulnerable person and they get fired? Persecution. Are they denying service to someone from historically reviled group and they got sued? Persecution. Are they told their government can't be seen to endorse their religious perspective? Persecution.
It's strange that you seem so willing to persecute the Muslims in similar ways. They want a place of worship? They get protested and called terrorists. They want Halal options available when they go shopping? They're trying to take over the country. It looks like a double standard. I'm as happy for Muslims to exist in my country and babysit my family as I am for a Christian to do so. I think both religions are wrong and potentially lead to dangerous mindsets.
The idea that we're all exactly the same and that different cultures don't have different agendas is what PC is all about, and it's a recipe for cultural suicide because Islam in particular follows a world domination agenda that apparently you'd all rather pretend doesn't exist.
Did you know that the culture in Indonesia is different than in Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia? Did you know that there isn't a singular Muslim culture any more than there is a Christian one?
I quoted a Frenchman complaining that you can't talk about these things without being called a racist or an Islamophobe or a bigot or whatnot, and that's the amazingly effective intimidating main tactic of political correctness that shuts up all sane voices, and it certainly reigns at EvC even if not everyone indulges in it vocally.
I have criticized Islam without being called racist or an Islamophobe. Maybe its how you choose to do it.
Are you painting all Muslims with a broad brush? Are you trying to drum up fear of all Muslims by insinuating they are ticking time bombs who would kill your sister as soon as look at her? Are you trying to argue that it's your understanding of their religion that matters and that since you interpret it as being dangerous, all Muslims should be considered dangerous? Are you arguing that people who have never claimed to be Muslim are still Muslim because of some familial connection and that therefore they are probably liars and shouldn't be trusted? Are you saying all Muslims are liars in any case, so we can't believe anything they try to assure us of, even if they seem great people?
Because that's the kind of talk that is Islamophobic and sometimes it can be racist too.
What did I get back but Dr. A's confirmation that it depends on what you say about those groups. Of course it does. You can't say they are behind crimes, you can't say immigration should be restricted, you can't say that perpetrators of crimes should be deported etc etc etc.
Well let's be realistic. You can say immigration should be restricted, but it depends on your specific arguments doesn't it?
Arguing that we have a housing problem so we should restrict immigration, might be reasonable.
Arguing that our economy would do better in the long term if we found ways to fill skill gaps domestically rather than from abroad, might be reasonable.
Saying 'We should kick out all Muslims from the country' is obviously Islamophobic.
Thinking that illegal immigration is the problem we should be focussed on, rather than say, healthcare or military spending or how money circulates in the economy is usually the hallmark of a xenophobe or racist.
See the difference?
Of course the people saying this aren't at the moment their victims.
Actually 'victims' of crimes by Muslims do say this.
And it could be construed as Islamophobic to have the subtle presumption of 'at the moment' in insinuating that we will all be victimized by terrible Islamic crimes eventually.
One thing Islam is NOT is tolerant of other beliefs,
None of the Abrahamic faiths are.
but it's amazing how those who try to warn about Islam are the ones subjected to that label instead. "Intolerant," yes, one of the terms in the PC arsenal.
Many Muslims are intolerant. But you'll find it directed at you more often because you are you so you get to experience every example of it.
You see, normally the 'warnings' about Islam are filled with hysterical bullshit and sound much like the same hysterical bullshit racists have whipped up against their ethnic enemies for centuries. There are more people in the USA that have these dangerous notions about the 'dangers' of Islam than there are Muslims in the USA. So yeah - you are going to see them being described as 'intolerant' quite a lot.
Since radicalization is something that happens to individuals, though the doctrines are always right there in the texts for anyone to follow, the Muslims who are innocent of this level of Islam should be given refuge and as I suggested, it would help if Christians helped them out in great numbers, so among other things they can see that Christianity is not violent like the jihadists.
It's difficult to provide refuge and tighten immigration against the Islamic threat.
I find it funny that you think you know Islam better than Muslims yet you continuously get Shia and Sunni concepts mixed up regardless of how many times you are corrected.

I agree with you that some people are just not smart enough or educated enough to have a reasonable discussion about Islam. Sooner or later they retreat to familiar soundbites such as 'political correctness' or 'Islamophobia'.
But let's get something's clear here:
By reinforcing that Islam is intrinsically bad at its core, you are simply making the prospect of changing Islamic culture more difficult.
Those people that argued that mixed race marriages were bad because of the contents of the Bible? They were making cultural change more difficult.
Personally, I would like to see the triumph of liberal Islam. An Islam that is tolerant of other perspectives, universally emancipates women and so on. If nobody recognizes liberal Islam as being truly Islamic then we're dooming ourselves to more misery. We're basically acting as ISIS recruiters and we outnumber them hugely so that would be a huge boon for them.
I would rather see the liberal 21st Century Western Christianity over the 15th Century Western one. Indeed even over some of the modern day African ones. The same goes for Islam.
We have influence with Muslims here, let's try and steer them to liberal Islam and let's not keep telling them that the ultraconservative Wahhabism is the only real Islam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Faith, posted 03-15-2016 3:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1478 of 1639 (780925)
03-27-2016 10:35 PM


Tweren't the Mormons...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 1480 by PaulK, posted 03-28-2016 4:58 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1481 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2016 2:16 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 1479 of 1639 (780927)
03-27-2016 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1478 by Coyote
03-27-2016 10:35 PM


Re: Tweren't the Mormons...
Message 106
Message 215
Message 1478
How much mileage do you plan on getting out of that 70s reference exactly?

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1480 of 1639 (780930)
03-28-2016 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1478 by Coyote
03-27-2016 10:35 PM


Re: Tweren't the Mormons...

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1481 of 1639 (780946)
03-28-2016 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1478 by Coyote
03-27-2016 10:35 PM


Re: Tweren't the Mormons...
Twere the Mormons this time too
Battle Creek massacre - Wikipedia

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1478 by Coyote, posted 03-27-2016 10:35 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 1482 of 1639 (780957)
03-28-2016 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1481 by Theodoric
03-28-2016 2:16 PM


Re: Tweren't the Mormons...
And don't forget about this one.
But, at least we didn't vote for Trump, so we're clearly not all depraved human beings.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 1483 of 1639 (780999)
03-29-2016 4:43 PM


Twernt tha mormons.
And this one as well. **it reeeally twernt tha mormons!
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1484 of 1639 (781006)
03-29-2016 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1482 by Blue Jay
03-28-2016 6:22 PM


Re: Tweren't the Mormons...
But are you REALLY Mormons?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1482 by Blue Jay, posted 03-28-2016 6:22 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2862 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 1485 of 1639 (781026)
03-30-2016 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1436 by Faith
03-18-2016 1:13 PM


Re: Islam's agenda
quote:
and Swedish arson against refugee camps.
Yea, unfortunately, 5-6 refugee centers were set ablaze by right wing neonazis, in sweden. I cant see how the refugees are to blame for that though.
Theres never any excuse for violent crime, but when you put a lot of different people together in camps, under less than stellar conditions, things _are_ going to happen. Unfortunately.

This message is a reply to:
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