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Author Topic:   Working Conditions and Benefits
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 57 (776715)
01-19-2016 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
01-18-2016 11:57 AM


Re: What's the purpose? And how do we pay?
Yes. Instead of helping, supporting and uniting people, their purpose\goal is to suppress, isolate and divide people -- we have the largest prison population per capita of the developed nations because of this.
That's because the jail/bail/prison system is viewed with business interests so they lock people up for minor things. It is a problem, I agree.
People will do anything to survive, and if the means are not available to do it lawfully, then they turn to criminal means: stealing, fraud, etc. Police then reacts to this to suppress "crime" -- treating the symptom and not the cause.
Yeah, but most people don't steal things or resort to crime so they can get food to eat. They do it because free shit is better than paying for it or they have some kind of addiction to support. There's not too many cases of people stealing loaves of bread for their hungry children but there are plenty of cases of people stealing cars and stripping them for parts.
Minimum wage was increased here from ~50% of a living wage to ~60% ... not a big help in reducing poverty imho.
What we DO see is a reduction in the use of SNAP (food stamps) by people with higher minimum wages.
Again, it is a matter of how we pay for basic standards of living, because we do end up paying one way or the other.
I definitely agree with that last statement. Either we pay more in SNAP or we pay more income. But isn't this substituting one problem for another? The U.S. Congressional Budget Office reports that raising the national minimum wage can and does result in the loss of jobs.
Source: The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income | Congressional Budget Office
As of now, 1 in 7 Americans are on SNAP. If there was a national increase in minimum wage, we could see that ratio double or even triple.
That's my concern.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : Edit to add

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 01-18-2016 11:57 AM RAZD has replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 57 (776716)
01-19-2016 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
01-18-2016 12:05 PM


Re: Minimum wage or living wage?
The simplest way would be a minimum annual living cost benefit, run as part of the IRS tax structure, and replacing minimum wage, unemployment, food stamps, welfare, social security, etc. etc.
Indexed to cost of living -- everyone gets a weekly check, monthly check or annual check\tax deduction, depending on your choice.
Wages above that would be earned additional income, and employers could offer anything from 1 cent/hour up, but they would have to pay enough to make it attractive to the worker.
I'm not sure I understand the concept fully. Are you referring to an Earned Income Tax Credit that can be done annually, monthly, or bi-weekly?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 01-18-2016 12:05 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 57 (776717)
01-19-2016 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tangle
01-18-2016 3:22 PM


Re: What's the purpose? And how do we pay?
I don't think the USA allows people to starve on the streets unless they are rejecting help? Most low level theft isn't to survive, it's to support drug and alcohol addiction.
I think it's a stretch to suppose that higher beneits or that increasing minimum pay rates would reduce crime given that basic needs are met. The evidence is rather against it - in the last recession crime rates fell.
I agree. Crime and recidivism is a complex issue. I think the assumption is that there is a clear trend between rates of poverty and rates of crime that appear to not only correlate but appear to have a causal relationship. But why there is a relationship is really complex and cannot be explained solely by economics. There are a ton of social factors at play as well (addiction, childhood trauma, bad parenting, de-sensitivity to crime, poor education, lack of opportunities, etc). Money plays a role, I wouldn't discount that, but I think it's too simplistic to assume that paying people more money would necessarily result in an appreciable drop in crime.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2016 3:22 PM Tangle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 49 of 57 (776900)
01-22-2016 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tangle
01-18-2016 3:22 PM


Re: What's the purpose? And how do we pay?
I don't think the USA allows people to starve on the streets unless they are rejecting help? ...
Florida made it a felony to feed homeless people, and arrested a pastor that was handing out food.
Cities (republicans) have passed laws making it illegal to sleep outside at night - I don't know what the punishment is for breaking these laws, probably put them in jail.
... Most low level theft isn't to survive, it's to support drug and alcohol addiction.
I think it's a stretch to suppose that higher beneits or that increasing minimum pay rates would reduce crime given that basic needs are met. ...
So if "basic needs are met" then would that not "support drug and alcohol addiction" ??? (Especially if decriminalizing and treating drugs would be part of the program).
... The evidence is rather against it - in the last recession crime rates fell.
Its harder to steal from poorer people, especially when they are in concentrated locations.
But I do agree that pursuing a living wage is a worthy goal in its own right.
People should be able to work a 35-40 hour week and get health, sick leave and health benefits, food and shelter, with time for family and some rest and relaxation.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2016 3:22 PM Tangle has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 50 of 57 (776901)
01-22-2016 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2016 1:20 AM


Re: Minimum wage or living wage?
I'm not sure I understand the concept fully. Are you referring to an Earned Income Tax Credit that can be done annually, monthly, or bi-weekly?
Not really, more like a dividend check, or an equity, for doing your share of participating in the economy.
This would free people to do more art and crafts, allow small businesses startups to thrive, etc.
See The 50-50-50-50-50 tax and economic plan. for more
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 51 of 57 (776903)
01-22-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
01-19-2016 12:58 AM


Re: What's the purpose? And how do we pay?
... They do it because free shit is better than paying for it or they have some kind of addiction to support. There's not too many cases of people stealing loaves of bread for their hungry children but there are plenty of cases of people stealing cars and stripping them for parts.
I would say because it is easier than getting a well paying job, and because our society values things highly and people not so much.
I definitely agree with that last statement. Either we pay more in SNAP or we pay more income. But isn't this substituting one problem for another? The U.S. Congressional Budget Office reports that raising the national minimum wage can and does result in the loss of jobs.
To be fair, we would have to look at what kinds of jobs are being lost -- if it is sub-poverty wage jobs, then those should be lost, and if a business can't survive without such jobs then it should not survive. Such jobs are ways to steal life from people to pad someone's pockets -- putting money over people.
Another aspect that is rarely discussed is that currently people are working 2+ jobs to get enough to live, working long hours for sub-poverty pay rates, and with a living wage this is no longer necessary -- and that frees up jobs. In other words there would be fewer jobs but more people in the workforce.
The final aspect I would bring up is that this dip would be temporary as people adjusted to the new system. The economy would grow from more money flowing at the bottom, people having more leisure time and money to spend on discretionary consumption rather than necessities. This in turn would boost small business and provide for their growth ... and new jobs, jobs that pay a living wage.
As of now, 1 in 7 Americans are on SNAP. If there was a national increase in minimum wage, we could see that ratio double or even triple.
That's my concern.
http://www.prb.org/...ions/Articles/2014/us-food-stamps.aspx
quote:
Why 1 in 7 Americans Receive Food Stamps
(March 2014) The weak U.S. economyreflected in higher unemployment, lower incomes, and widening inequalityis the main reason the number of Americans receiving federal food stamp benefits grew rapidly since 2000, reports James Ziliak, director of the Center for Poverty Research at the University of Kentucky, in a recent analysis.
ie fewer jobs paying a living wage
Facts About SNAP | Food and Nutrition Service
quote:
SNAP helps low-income people buy the food they need for good health. You may be able to get SNAP benefits if you are:
Working for low wages or working part-time;
Unemployed;
Receiving welfare or other public assistance payments;
Elderly or disabled and are low-income; or
Homeless.
State public assistance agencies run the program through their local offices. The following basic rules apply in most States, but a few States have different rules.
The amount of SNAP benefits you can get is based on the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Thrifty Food Plan, which is an estimate of how much it costs to buy food to prepare nutritious, low-cost meals for your household. This estimate is changed every year to keep pace with food prices.
And it varies from area to area as food prices vary (at least in theory, but I don't think they compare food costs by area served, generally higher in low income areas?).
McDonald's helps workers get food stamps
quote:
McDonald's workers should have no problem qualifying for government programs like food stamps and heating assistance.
The hamburger chain pretty much admits that in a call made by a worker to "McResource"-- a helpline set up for its workers.
Instead of paying a living wage McD is making us taxepayers pick up the slack while they record record profits.
Wal-Mart's low wages cost taxpayers
quote:
It's not enough to make ends meet for the 21-year-old single mother. Stinnett and her son are on MediCal, the California Medicaid program. She relies on food stamps for her son, and borrows money from her family to buy diapers and pay rent.
That's because in the last six months, Stinnett has been scheduled to work 20 hours or fewer a week, which isn't enough to qualify for Wal-Mart benefits.
"I'm barely scraping by with what I make," she said. "I have no money whatsoever for emergencies."
The cost of low wages at Wal-Mart (WMT) are at the center of a new report released last week by the Democratic staff of the House Committee on Education and the Workforce. Low wages are an issue across the economy, but Wal-Mart, as the country's largest private employer, has long faced closer scrutiny than other companies.
According to the report, the cost of Wal-Mart's low wages isn't just felt by workers like Stinnett, but also transferred to American taxpayers. The report zeroes in on Wal-Mart in Wisconsin. That's because the state releases information on how many workers are enrolled in its public health care program broken down by employer.
At the end of 2012, there were 3,216 Wal-Mart employees who were enrolled in Wisconsin public health care programs, more than any other employer. Add in the dependents of Wal-Mart workers and the total jumps up to 9,207.
Factoring in what taxpayers contribute for public programs, the report estimated that one Wal-Mart supercenter employing 300 workers could cost taxpayers at least $904,000 annually.
And Walmart record profits in the billions annually ... subsidized by the American taxpayer.
But that is not all of the effect of their sub-poverty wages, those wages make it hard for local businesses to compete and you lose jobs when those businesses close.
http://thinkprogress.org/...ssential-facts-about-food-stamps
quote:
1. The majority of SNAP recipients are children or elderly—and many work. A report released in November 2012 by the USDA’s Food and Nutrition Service shows that 45 percent of SNAP recipients were under 18 years of age and nearly 9 percent were age 60 or older. What’s more, more than 40 percent of SNAP recipients lived in a household with earnings.
So paying a living wage could reduce SNAP by 40% ...
If we consider that {paid wage + SNAP} ≡ living wage, and that
{actual cost of worker} ≥ living wage
Then we are paying the employer {living wage - paid wage} = SNAP for them to do business -- they are subsidized by the taxpayer, they are the real 'welfare queens' ...
quote:
2. SNAP is critical to keeping families out of poverty. SNAP plays a vital role in keeping families living on the brink from slipping into poverty. The latest poverty data show that SNAP lifted 4.7 million households out of poverty in 2011. Without SNAP, the child poverty rate would have been nearly 3 percentage points higher.
40% of 4.7 million = 1.88 million households ...
The cost of poverty to society is huge.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 52 of 57 (776912)
01-22-2016 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by RAZD
01-22-2016 9:58 AM


Re: What's the purpose? And how do we pay?
RAZD writes:
Florida made it a felony to feed homeless people, and arrested a pastor that was handing out food.
Cities (republicans) have passed laws making it illegal to sleep outside at night - I don't know what the punishment is for breaking these laws, probably put them in jail.
Those sound like specific anti-vagrancy efforts rather than the state not feeding those that are starving in a systematic way, but I don't know anything about your laws.
So if "basic needs are met" then would that not "support drug and alcohol addiction" ??? (Especially if decriminalizing and treating drugs would be part of the program).
I'm not arguing against progressive social measures, I'm saying that purely increasing benefits is unlikely to reduce crime in the direct way you seem to suggest.
Its harder to steal from poorer people, especially when they are in concentrated locations.
Not at all, most stealing is done amongst people and properties in poorer areas and it was perceived wisdom that economic downturns created unemployment which created criime. Not so this time.
People should be able to work a 35-40 hour week and get health, sick leave and health benefits, food and shelter, with time for family and some rest and relaxation.
I agree, so why not move to a sane country?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2016 9:58 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 53 of 57 (776921)
01-22-2016 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
01-22-2016 1:59 PM


Clarification needed.
quote:
Those sound like specific anti-vagrancy efforts rather than the state not feeding those that are starving in a systematic way, but I don't know anything about your laws.
In the United States, it is a crime to stop moving in a most cities. It is called "loitering". It is a crime to sleep almost anywhere (Rhode Island is an exception where there is are some sort of rights to lay down in parks and possibly sidewalks too). Shelters (for men especially) are extremely rare and when they are present, they are always full. The few, who get to stay in them, must come late and leave really early. Loitering will remain an issue. It is always an issue.
Homeless people consider it a MAJOR relief to be arrested, so most cities have policies where they just write big fines (Los Angeles and Hawaii routinely give out $1000 or higher loitering fines) and won't arrest homeless people UNLESS it is a trespassing charge.
Also.
Since almost all homeless people, in extreme desperation, have taken "advantage" of the endless government-funded legions of mental doctors available to get a quickie "bi-polar" or "schizophrenia" diagnosis, they have already disqualified themselves from far more jobs than they would loose by having a criminal record alone.
They really have nothing to loose and everything to gain (shelter, showers, sleep, maintained health, etc.) by getting arrested.
They have to trespass to get arrested though.
Also SNAP (the food stamp program) has rules that require a person to work 20 hours a week to get the benefits, so few people sleeping on the streets get them. There is an exemption if a person gets a mental diagnosis and a letter from a doctor, but doctors usually won't write the letter unless a person takes their medication. Then a person is disqualified for life from SNAP if they ever had a drug charge (that covers almost all homeless people as they have to sell drugs to try to survive PLUS they start to take drugs - when they have access to them - and alcohol to help cope with the severe suffering they endure as living homeless).
Food is the least of the problems homeless suffer from though.
The biggest problem, by far, is disqualification from jobs.
In the United States, massive hospital bills - from endless hospitalizations - are also a significant issue that homeless people have to deal with. If they somehow manage to get a job, a large amount gets automatically docked each and every check.
Most homeless spend a lot of time behind bars while going through the very long process to get Social Security Disability or SSI benefits. The irony is that after most homeless people finally get approved for Disability, their conditions always improve to such a significant extent health-wise(despite being older and in much reduced physical and mental shape after the long ordeal), once they get their monthly check, that they immediately want to go to work.
They want a job. But there is a catch.
The catch is that they will looses their hard-fought Disability benefits (essentially for years at least) and they have an immense fear of falling down on their luck again without any safety net whatsoever.
This is the situation in the United States of America.
We are about the most retarded country in the world when it comes to our policies toward poor people. You are from the U.K. so you won't have a clue what goes on here. Most of our crime is caused because we treat poor people like dirt. We pass laws that guarantee that people will be poor criminals. Almost every policy our politicians implement only makes the criminal situation worse. Everything they do (and it is a lot) makes poor people criminals. Everything we don't do (policies that would be a no-brainer - like shelter and a safety net) causes crime to skyrocket.
I really do think that all this endlessly stupid policy being proposed (and implemented)is one big social experiment just to see the "blind leading the blind" follow each other.
When was the last time a U.S. politician passed a policy that actually reduced the systematic criminalization of being poor?
When was the last time there was policy implemented that actually had a chance of reducing crime?
(Notice I didn't even mention how our economic growth is STILL based on inflated housing prices and people borrowing against their mortgages to finance purchases - DESPITE the crash of 2008!)
(Add that to the government borrowing, with temporary near-0% interest rates, and that's all our "growth")
(subtract immigration growth to our economy and our GDP really is negative per capita growth)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2016 1:59 PM Tangle has replied

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 54 of 57 (776922)
01-22-2016 9:54 PM


And I like this one.
We hear all the time about how "dangerous the mentally ill are" and how they "need treatment".
Then the government refuses to fund shelter programs (which would keep those "dangerous people" off the streets) while instead enacting policy that makes it worse than a criminal sentence to be diagnosed with a mental illness.
And incase that isn't enough, policy is enacted to make sure that mental records (of doctor visits, diagnoses, notes, etc.) get sent to a federal database ASAP so the disqualifications are ensured to be caught in background checks.
Gee, that will sure reduce crime.
O and did I mention that one of the policies is to make it an additional (additional!) crime to possess a gun if a person has a diagnosis.
No wonder "gun running" is such a hot black market.
No wonder prisons are such a hot industry.
God help us all!

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(3)
Message 55 of 57 (776930)
01-23-2016 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
01-09-2016 4:58 AM


All gains and no labor pains
The US guys get some sort of healthcare package which I imagine is worth a fair amount.
Employees for the same company in other European branches get even more leave entitlement than the UK staff.
All of this got me wondering about the working practices culture in different countries, the perception of work-life balance in different countries and whether there is any evidenced conclusions about worker productivity in these different worker environments.
I am a Union Steward for a large grocery chain. Recently I had the experience of being on the negotiating committee with about 20 others and the leaders of our labor union. The result was that we secured one of the best grocery contracts in the United States---without a strike. We did push the corporations a bit---they were not about to budge otherwise.
I got a firsthand look at how negotiations are done, and learned a lot about strategy at bargaining meetings. The result in my neck of the woods was that the 2 year old Walmart Grocery Store down the road has now closed, giving my store a 10% increase in business.
We have paid vacations, a raise for all employees---larger wage increases for lesser paid employees and smaller raises for us at the top of the scale. We top out at $18.30 hourly and it seems morale has improved.
Overall I consider it a blessing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 56 of 57 (776931)
01-23-2016 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by LamarkNewAge
01-22-2016 9:44 PM


Re: Clarification needed.
It seems that there are more Christian values in atheist countries......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-22-2016 9:44 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 57 of 57 (776944)
01-23-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by LamarkNewAge
01-22-2016 9:44 PM


Re: Clarification needed.
Most homeless spend a lot of time behind bars while going through the very long process to get Social Security Disability or SSI benefits. The irony is that after most homeless people finally get approved for Disability, their conditions always improve to such a significant extent health-wise(despite being older and in much reduced physical and mental shape after the long ordeal), once they get their monthly check, that they immediately want to go to work.
They want a job. But there is a catch.
The catch is that they will looses their hard-fought Disability benefits (essentially for years at least) and they have an immense fear of falling down on their luck again without any safety net whatsoever.
This is the situation in the United States of America.
And this is why we need a base dividend\stipend that is paid to a person with no strings, no conditions. Let them keep what they earn at least until they make enough to start paying taxes.
Same for unemployment, snap, disability, social security -- a living wage dividend\stipend. One department shopping.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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