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Author Topic:   The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 254 (776410)
01-12-2016 7:17 PM


The standoff at Malheur has lasted for 10 days or so, with no sign of ending soon.
It deserves its own thread separate from the Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread
This article give some more background on what is driving the Bundys and how it directly affects the people who have chosen to spend their lives studying ecosystems in the western states and the organisms that live there.
In the Oregon Standoff, Science is a Hostage

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-12-2016 7:55 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 07-19-2017 11:53 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 4 of 254 (776416)
01-12-2016 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
01-12-2016 7:55 PM


But as she notes, this has been going on for many years--more than 20 for Cliven Bundy, without consequence for him. The armed occupation is an escalation and has already provoked increased harassment of scientists and federal employees in the area.
I don't know who has jurisdiction in the cases involving the Bundys, but I would think that the U.S. Department of Justice, the Attorney General and federal prosecutors should have plenty of evidence to haul all the Bundys and their co-conspirators into federal court and put them on trial. Is it fear or a lack of will that lets these dimwits break law after law?
These are exactly the people who should not be allowed to touch any weapons or firearms. They are a parody of a militia.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-12-2016 7:55 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 254 (776419)
01-12-2016 9:47 PM


It keeps getting crazier
It looks to me as if law enforcement and any federal authorities that might be on the scene have completely lost control, if they ever had it. It seems like the risk of bloodshed is increasing as more nutjobs keep showing up.
Self-appointed 'judge' arrives in Burns to ask local residents to charge government officials with crimes

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 254 (776425)
01-13-2016 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
01-12-2016 11:06 PM


Re: possible resolution.
Since the crimes are Federal, it seems the Federal government has some reasonable recourse that does not involve violence. The Federal courts can initiate asset seizure, all the cattle, any bank accounts, any property, vehicles, anything that moves or can be portable.
Maybe with this bunch of nutters gathered here in Oregon, it is the perfect time to arrest Cliven and seize his assets in Nevada and also the Bubba boy's stuff down in Arizona.
It sure is beginning to look to me like governmental authorities at all levels are completely baffled in how to deal with this. They seem to think that nothing can be done without it leading violence before it's resolved, so they are paralyzed and can't do anything. Right now the boundary around the zone of repugnance (I mean occupation) is completely porous with people coming and going all day long. The Bubbas need to be isolated and arrested one by one when they come out when they get hungry.
I wonder if dear old Daddy Bubba every leaves the Nevada ranch? They should be watching him and grab him when he comes out. They got Bin Laden and sooner or later they have to face up to it and take away these guys freedom and toys.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 01-12-2016 11:06 PM jar has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 9 of 254 (776426)
01-13-2016 3:03 AM


Dildos?
A friend just told me that dildos are being mailed to the Bundy Bubbas. I can just imagine the joy and gayety around the campfire tonight.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 01-13-2016 1:33 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 13 of 254 (776448)
01-13-2016 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Omnivorous
01-13-2016 8:46 AM


I'm not going to post links since they are so available
There is a lot out there (it's the internet), but some things are too good to pass up.
Rancher: 'I didn't know anything' about Bundy entering property, destroying fence
quote:
"I am very upset," Puckett told The Oregonian/OregonLive.
His ranch hands have already repaired the fence.
.
Builder of website about Malheur occupation says '#Pray4ISIS' social media posts were just rants
quote:
Fry, who has also made a website supporting the standoff, said in an interview Tuesday night that he is not a supporter of the Islamic State. He characterized his Google+ page which also includes the hashtag "#HitlerWasRight" and phrase "obama needs to be hung after being found guilty for TREASON!!" as him "ranting off" and being facetious and sarcastic at times.
Strange bedfellows......

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2016 8:46 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 254 (776477)
01-13-2016 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
01-13-2016 8:01 PM


This article is scary
This article is chilling. It is starting to feel like this is just one part of much larger, well-planned operation to steal public lands all over the western states.
How Refuge Occupation Could Fuel Land Privatization Movement

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2016 8:01 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Omnivorous, posted 01-14-2016 11:12 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 18 of 254 (776500)
01-14-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Omnivorous
01-14-2016 11:12 AM


Re: This article is scary
I followed a sidebar link on that page, Controversial Federal Grazing Fees Not A Great Deal For Anyone, to an article from Oregon Public Broadcasting. I'm still trying to work through all the points there, with some difficulty because it mixes numbers with general assertions, but many of the numbers there seem to contradict their headline.
The irony is that the ranchers have been getting a fantastic deal for more than a century. Extremely cheap grazing fees plus the feds do all the work as far as restoration of damage caused by grazing and control of invasive weeds.
I found this to be a very informative commentary about what these guys are after. The Bundys Have A Vision For The West, and You Aren't Included
quote:
Flash forward from 1947 to 2015, and think of this week's revelation that the occupiers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge have been removing fences put in place by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to regulate where livestock can graze on the refuge.
That's right, "regulate." Not "prevent." Of 560 National Wildlife Refuges across the country, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service permits grazing on at least 183. The Malheur NWR is one of those 183, and its staff have a reputation for being quite willing to work with local ranchers. Malheur staff and local ranchers have worked for the last couple of decades to craft a management plan intended to provide food for cattle while improving wildlife habitat.
quote:
It's not hard to find environmentalists who object to such collaborative solutions between livestock growers and land managers, but those environmentalists don't run the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Or the Bureau of Land Management. Or the U.S. Forest Service. Grazing is even permitted in 32 units of the National Park system, including the Mojave National Preserve.
quote:
It's long been a truism that no industrial sector has been so coddled, with so little economic benefit in return, as public lands livestock grazers. The entire public lands ranching industry generates just three percent of the beef produced in the U.S., and accounts for less than one percent of either jobs or income even in ranch-heavy states like Wyoming and Montana.
That's despite significant federal subsidies. In 2016, it costs $1.69 a month to graze a cow and calf on BLM or Forest Service lands. That's somewhere around a sixth of what it costs the Feds to administer the grazing program, and as little as a tenth what ranchers pay for their livestock to graze on private lands.
quote:
The Federal government also spends an undisclosed amount -- certainly well into the millions of dollars each year -- on killing predators ranchers fear may be targeting their livestock, said campaign being administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Wildlife Services division.
And that's not counting the money we spend to repair landscapes, control invasive plants spread by livestock, fight fires sparked by those invasive species, and even to convene years-long collaboration sessions on the sage grouse instead of inconveniencing ranchers by just listing the species as endangered.
quote:
It's worth noting that most local ranchers in Harney County have treated the Bundy Bunch with something like derision.
By contrast, Ammon Bundy and the rest of his band seem stuck back in a 19th Century that never actually happened, where ranchers are "the people" and the actual people who might want to hike, camp, or watch birds on land they own are considered jackbooted thugs, good only for paying the bills and then staying away, carefully keeping to the front side of the No Trespassing sign.
So we can assume that the Bubbas will still have their hands out for public subsidies after they steal public lands. Considering the lack of response to the occupation by the DOJ so far, they might just get away with it.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Omnivorous, posted 01-14-2016 11:12 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 01-14-2016 5:43 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 22 of 254 (776552)
01-15-2016 4:40 PM


Another Point of View
I seem to be spending more time than I really want, looking for stories and opinions opposed to the criminals mounting an armed occupation on public land in SE Oregon.
Tobias Coughlin-Bogue writes about another point of view on the issues involving Malheur.
My Dad Worked at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, and He Knows What Happens When Ranchers Get Their Way (emphasis mine)
quote:
But there is one more point to be made here: The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is also culturally significant. It isn’t federally protected because the government hates ranchers, it’s federally protected because the American people, like the Dixie Chicks, love wide-open spaces.
quote:
Bundy seems to assume that if the federal government let the ranchers manage their own affairs, we’d all be riding the gravy train to prosperity station.
But my dad worked on the refuge as a field archaeologist for five years in the 1970s, and he has a very different story to tell: My first experience with cattle grazing on the refuge lands was in the south part of the refuge near Frenchglen. Several fields between the west side canal and the Donner und Blitzen River were being used for grazing. There were lots of cattle there. I think these cattle were from one of the larger ranches in the area, can’t say which one, but Roaring Springs Ranch comes to mind. The cattle had pretty much eaten just about all available vegetation there. These fields were merely mud and cow shit. It was ugly. We were not able to survey these fields for prehistoric sites until a few years later when the fields were not used for grazing.
quote:
As my dad recalls, this poor stewardship of the land was what drove the government to limit grazing and buy up ranches:
From that time, the refuge management has focused on running a wildlife refuge, not a ranch.
quote:
...Bundy and his little band of misguided patriots are clinging to the notion that they’re fighting for the American people. What they’re really fighting for is the right to destroy a beautiful place.
I find myself remembering many great experiences at Malheur. In 1974, I attended a 3-week nature photography course at the Malheur Environmental Field Station. The course was limited to 15 students and we had incredible access to some of the best wildlife, scenery, cultural, and historical areas on and around the refuge.
Prior to that time and for many years after, my father and I spent long weekends every spring doing nature photography on the refuge and the surrounding areas. I like to visit during all the seasons most years.
The Malheur Environmental Field Station was run by Denzel Ferguson while I was there. Denzel Ferguson spent a quarter-century fighting to protect public lands from ranchers who thought they had a right to use them however they pleased. Ferguson wrote several books, Sacred Cows at the Public Trough, 1983 and Oregon's Great Basin Country, 1979.
The field station had 2 black and white darkrooms that were in use by the class at night. It was 3 weeks of the most intense focus on photography in my life, up until that time. The course was taught by a retired zoology prof from Oregon State University and could be taken for college credit. I was the oldest student by several years. There was one student who was in high school and the rest were in college. There were a couple dozen classes going on at the same time. Ornithology, Herpetology, Mammalogy, Archeology, Vascular Plants of the Steens, and many more were all packed with enthusiastic students. I learned so much. Richard Nixon resigned while I was there.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Omnivorous, posted 01-15-2016 5:17 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 32 of 254 (776635)
01-17-2016 5:25 PM


Brothers Raising Funds for Causes the Bundys Hate
Brilliant idea:
Oregon brothers launch anti-Bundy fundraising campaign

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 55 of 254 (776812)
01-20-2016 2:59 PM


The bubbas claim to have deep pockets supporting them. Hopefully, they are keeping accurate accounts for tax purposes. The real danger from a public standpoint would be legislative changes by a Republican-controlled Congress and Whitehouse, putting public land in private hands. Oregon standoff leader warns feds: Back off
I find myself wondering why the Bubbas were not arrested at this public meeting in the high school gym? I assume they were not armed in the meeting, but then again, these are extremist gun nuts. Oregon standoff: Anger, frustration boil over at community meeting
Some history of some of the big ranches in the region. Timber Oligarchs Transform Into Beef Barons in Harney County and the Oregon High Desert
Why the Bubbas shouldn't be considered terrorist, or maybe they should. It’s definitely not terrorists at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon, don’t worry!
A quote from the Malheur NWR Facebook page
quote:
An open letter to our friends, our supporters, and many curious about what's going on here.
From: The Staff of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
To: Our Friends, Partners, and the American Public
Dear Friends,
Many have asked us to comment on the ongoing situation at Malheur NWR. We have refrained because we care deeply for the community, and want to ensure our words do not inflame an already heated situation. However, we believe it is important that our views and position are known.
We believe many in the media (as well as those sympathetic to the illegal occupiers) were surprised to hear that the communitywhile frustrated with the Hammond situationdid not leap to the support of the militants. We are not surprised.
For over 100 years, our Refuge employees have been members of this community. We study, watch our kids play basketball, worship, commune, and interact with our fellow Harney County citizensnot as a ‘we vs. they’but as an ‘us.’
In a community with nearly 40% of working adults engaged in some form of government, we are all touched or involved in the public process. In Harney County, that means we talk. We have cups of coffee. We have arguments. Together we knit our brows, and together we knit scarves. We understand what those in Washington D.C. and those currently occupying the Refuge don’t understand---that Harney County isn’t afraid of tough talk.
We can have effective disagreements and either find resolution, find compromise, or simply agree to disagree. But we do it with respect for the rule of law, and know that our areas of agreement and cooperation are infinitely more powerful than the differences we may face. Mostly, we face those differences together with open dialogue and open gatesnot intimidation and threats. We have access to each other, because we are not afraid to confront difficult situations or have difficult conversations.
It pains each of us that we are missing our obligations to youas church leaders, as 4-H advisers, as friends, and as school volunteers. We hope to be back soon and pick up where we left off.
From the bottom of our hearts, we thank you for your support. We know (as you do too) that it is not our Refuge that has been occupied; this is Harney County’s and America’s Refuge.
We are excited to be part of the eventual healing process for our community. We believe that this difficult situation will lead to even stronger bonds between the Refuge and the community that has supported us. We feel for you, because we are you.
We will get through thisbecause:
We. Are. Harney. County.
  —Malheur NWR Facebook page
A lot is being written about the standoff but not much in so-called mainstream media.
Rallies around the state dreww pretty large crowds yesterday despite crappy weather.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 62 of 254 (776829)
01-20-2016 9:21 PM


This just keeps getting better
The Feds have let this get completely out of hand. Oregon governor calls on Feds to act, says 'this spectacle of lawlessness must end'
It is time to cut the power, blockade the roads, and move in and arrest everyone of these criminals. At the refuge, it's time to pull the plug: Editorial
Now more of these nuts have turned up. ‘God wants us here’: More militiamen arrive at Malheur
This is turning into a total Cluster F**K. The chances of this ending without bloodshed are almost zero.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Omnivorous, posted 01-20-2016 10:14 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 01-20-2016 10:40 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 69 of 254 (776837)
01-21-2016 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by AZPaul3
01-20-2016 11:32 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
The state has no authority/standing to perform police actions on federal lands. The refuge is not a part of Oregon.
This is incorrect. The refuge is in Oregon and crimes committed there are investigated by the state police or the county sheriff. Federal law enforcement is pretty sparse in Oregon except in metropolitan areas. Since federal property is the focus of the crime the FBI would have jurisdiction, but if they won't act the governor should be able to act.
I'm of two minds here. The dove in me says violence is never the answer, especially when the death toll has the potential to be dozens of fellow American lives no matter how twisted their political bent. Wait them out. There may yet be a non-violent solution in the future.
Whether the authorities wait them out or storm them, they first need to isolate them and stop this fucking bullshit of letting them come and go and more assholes showing up and joining them.
By now they probably have generators, so cutting the power has less effect. This all should have been taken care of in the first couple days. Infiltrators should have gone in at night and slashed all the tires on their vehicles and sugared their gas tanks.
The authorities have looked like idiots through this and we can only hope that the new guys showing up are actually federal undercover agents or this is going to be one of the biggest law enforcement screwups of all time.
If a shootout actually starts the refuge headquarters makes a pretty good fort, being built of heavy thick stone. It would be a scientific tragedy of the museum is damaged or destroyed.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by AZPaul3, posted 01-20-2016 11:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by AZPaul3, posted 01-21-2016 1:35 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 254 (776866)
01-21-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by RAZD
01-21-2016 2:43 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
Letting them have press conferences and attend meetings is not working.
Plus their cronies are harassing the families of law enforcement and federal workers. These un-American thugs are an embarrassment to us all.
Letter from Governor Kate Brown to the U.S. Dept. of Justice.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2016 2:43 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2016 5:11 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 74 of 254 (776873)
01-21-2016 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by RAZD
01-21-2016 5:11 PM


Re: Sign the Petition?
I tried to sign the Whitehouse petition twice. It said I needed to confirm it on an email, but no email came.
The FBI looks totally incompetent today when they had the perfect opportunity to take Bundy into custody. FBI and Oregon standoff leaders begin negotiations to end refuge occupation
ABE: I used a different email address and the petition worked.
Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2016 5:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2016 9:44 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
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