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Author Topic:   Hypocrisy and doubletalk: Lessons from Sean Penn
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(3)
Message 16 of 26 (776626)
01-17-2016 2:40 PM


If you put together ten typical American conservatives and ten typical American progressives in a room, they will all share the same opinions of Mexican drug cartels and ISIS. They would probably differ in their views on what to do about the problem, and on the causes that brought them about, but there would be unanimous, unwavering agreement on the fact that the subjects under discussion are a Bad Thing that we would be better off without. They are not contested topics, and so harping on about how bad one or the other is would be a lot of wasted energy.
On subjects like Trump and Obama, however, their viewpoints would be liable to conflict a lot more; and so these are the ones that require energy to discuss, and that people feel the urge to talk about to reassure each other that people share their views, despite the divergent opinions they're exposed to.
It's not that anybody thinks Obama or Trump are worse than Guzman. It's a question of which are the dividing issues under dispute in your society.

  
nwr
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Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 17 of 26 (776637)
01-17-2016 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hyroglyphx
01-17-2016 1:04 AM


Likewise, I don't agree with much of the characteristics prevalent among the Progressive ethos, which is why I'm not one.
I'm wondering what is this putative "progressive ethos".
As university faculty (retired), I've known quite a few people who should probably be considered progressive. I don't think any of them pay attention to Sean Penn, other than to watch some movies that he might be in.
When the news media have become a branch of the entertainment industry, these things get exaggerated way out of proportion.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
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Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 18 of 26 (776639)
01-17-2016 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
01-17-2016 4:26 AM


No more so than making a case about conservative ideology by questioning Donald Trump.
The progressives that I have been hearing are not questioning Donald Trump. They are questioning why so many who call themselves conservative are supporting such an empty shell as Donald Trump.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Omnivorous
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From: Adirondackia
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Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 19 of 26 (776640)
01-17-2016 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Diomedes
01-17-2016 2:39 PM


Diomedes writes:
...it also allows them to point out his idiocy for all the world to see, thereby increasing the likelihood that he will single-handedly implode the Republican primary and assure a Democratic victory in November.
Yes, I recall in 2000 when George Bush was the likely nominee, and it was larks in the spring-time for Democrats. That moron?
Trump may be a case of careful what you wish for in the general election. If it's true that the pure products of America go crazy, and I think it is, The American people are perfectly capable of electing a billionaire Bizarro populist who regards them with contempt.
I can see why Putin busted his politically-minded oligarchs. This is dangerous stuff.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 20 of 26 (776642)
01-17-2016 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Omnivorous
01-17-2016 6:26 PM


Diomedes writes:
...it also allows them to point out his idiocy for all the world to see, thereby increasing the likelihood that he will single-handedly implode the Republican primary and assure a Democratic victory in November.
Yes, I recall in 2000 when George Bush was the likely nominee, and it was larks in the spring-time for Democrats. That moron?
Trump may be a case of careful what you wish for in the general election. If it's true that the pure products of America go crazy, and I think it is, The American people are perfectly capable of electing a billionaire Bizarro populist who regards them with contempt.
I find myself hopeful that none of the clown-car win the general election, but America elected Brain-dead Reagan and Torturer Bush twice each.
If the clown car wins, America probably will never recover in my lifetime and may end up a failed state like Somalia. We are on the brink of a cultural revolution like we saw in Mao's China.
I can see why Putin busted his politically-minded oligarchs. This is dangerous stuff.
The things we have seen happen to protestors at Trump rallies, that he not only approves of but encourages, instead of condemning, is scary, dangerous stuff.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 21 of 26 (776650)
01-17-2016 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tanypteryx
01-17-2016 7:09 PM


Where Trump and Cruz fit in
Tanypteryx writes:
I can see why Putin busted his politically-minded oligarchs. This is dangerous stuff.
The things we have seen happen to protestors at Trump rallies, that he not only approves of but encourages, instead of condemning, is scary, dangerous stuff.
Pardon the preaching: I've got nowhere else to think out loud about such matters. When I'm not fuming at the Oregon occupiers, here's what I think about in the dark.
There are dangerous parallels at work in the world. Both Putin and Trump are ersatz populists, faux macho men of the people who embody and express xenophoic fears and resentments; apprpriately enough, for such revanchist heros, the former hails from the old Soviet intelligence service and the latter from the economic 1% in the U.S., but both hearken to better and stronger authoritarian days.
Despite Trump's niceness about innocence before proof, it makes little difference whether Putin or Putin supporters kill and harrass Russian reporters: the killings demonstrate the same fascist will of the leader as Trump supporters when they jeer and rough up protestors while corralling the press.
Putin smacked down his oligarchs; ours got Citizens United, yet the American right can't seem to stop gazing fondly at Putin. Odd, that.
Meanwhile, back at the Middle East and the American heartland, religious zealots preach against toleration and understanding, diplomacy and peace. ISIS and Al Qaeda, et al., terrorize both the West and their own people to destroy any possible middle ground; the religious right in the U.S. (the seat of right wing power here now) seeks to make all Muslims the enemy, disabusing all Muslims and Americans of any possible middle ground.
The American right has met the enemy, and he is them.
Muslim refugees crave the civil and material security of the West while retaining religious and cultural contempt for its mores and personal freedoms; the American right trumpets exceptionalist Western freedoms while working to deny them at home. On the one hand, the refugee men who assaulted women holiday revelers in Cologne see these drunken slatterns as legitimate targets; their American counterparts, who would normally think those drunken slatterns invited their abuse had it happened in a frat, instead cite the attacks as evidence of Islam's evil rather than men's failings.
Peace is weak, and war is strong: Cruz would go to war over our mis-navigating sailors, as though we'd greet invading Iranian sailors in Maine with clam bakes and hugs, and the successful spiking of an Iranian breeder reactor and the release of U.S. prisoners in Iran without armed conflict is branded as weakness.
Peace has been totally pussified on all sides in terms just that laden with animus toward gender and identity differences, within and without.
In the meantime, China establishes a military base on an artificial island in the South China Sea and kidnaps Hong Kong citizens, and the demi-god in North Korea enlarges his nuclear stockpile and threatens war. Both Kim and Cruz dream of radioactive landscapes. The U.S. sails carriers close to the Chinese island base and flies a nuclear-capable B-52 over South Korea: Tit, tat, tick, tock: What could go wrong?
Underlying these confluences, everywhere we see the rise of fascist impulses. The globe is warming in more than thermal ways, although the deteriorating global climate will certainly make global political chaos even hotter. It's all mad fire, and the madness is being fanned globally in the pursuit of local as much as global power--in the U.S., in the new Soviet Union, in the Middle East, in Asia, in terrorist- and refugee-traumatized Europe.
Before the world quite realizes what is happening, self-serving postures can become insane policies; sometimes, when national and factional political and religious leaders play these hot games, things suddenly get real, and we're in the middle of a great big war.
That's what I worry about.
Edited by Omnivorous, : 1 nuance

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 26 (776656)
01-18-2016 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Theodoric
01-17-2016 11:22 AM


Were you going to explain how I'm being hypocritical or simply make the assertion?

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 26 (776658)
01-18-2016 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by NoNukes
01-17-2016 12:32 PM


There's really not much to discuss then. Had I used Mel Gibson to summarize the conservative ethos we wouldn't be having this discussion. The peanut gallery has obviously taken strong exception with using Sean Penn, so I guess this thread is dead.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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 Message 25 by Omnivorous, posted 01-18-2016 8:04 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 24 of 26 (776660)
01-18-2016 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2016 12:20 AM


There's really not much to discuss then. Had I used Mel Gibson to summarize the conservative ethos we wouldn't be having this discussion. The peanut gallery has obviously taken strong exception with using Sean Penn, so I guess this thread is dead.
Your post is dishonest. Nobody here is making any effort whatsoever to defend Sean Penn. Almost all of the complaints are about you generalizing your attack on Penn to progressives.
That generalization was wrong. You have no defense for making the generalization you do so you engage in speculation about what I would have done had you applied the same poor logic to someone else. I'm not perfect, but I do regularly call people for making bad arguments on issues that I would agree with them on.
But you are right. If this is the best you can do them you don't have much to discuss.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 25 of 26 (776671)
01-18-2016 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2016 12:20 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:
Had I used Mel Gibson to summarize the conservative ethos we wouldn't be having this discussion. The peanut gallery has obviously taken strong exception with using Sean Penn, so I guess this thread is dead.
You picked badly, yes--a movie star with no political significance or following. Then you equated him with the GOP's leading presidential candidate. Penn's a narcissitic jerk, sure, but I bet he was a jerk before he could spell politics. You imploded your own argument by picking a straw man.
So pick again and make your case. I'd recommend a widely supported political figure rather than a wacky actor, if the figure is to exemplify the progressive ethos; better yet, make your case on hypocrisy directly against the progressive ethos with multiple examples. The thread is only dead if you feel you can't make your case at all.
And peanut gallery? That's a cheap shot munch
By it, I guess you mean bystanders with no legitimate expectation of an active role in the discussion, as opposed to forum members encouraged to engage. Nobody like that here.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 26 of 26 (776673)
01-18-2016 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2016 12:06 AM


I think I was quite clear and obvious in my post. If you cannot figure it out maybe you need to learn the definitions of assertion and hypocritical.
While you are doing that you might want to look up self awareness too.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2016 12:06 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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