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Junior Member (Idle past 2796 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The great basic question of science on origin of life | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Welcome to the fray, Vladimir Matveev,
Interesting article
3. In 2007, we saw the simultaneous release of two articles, in which it was posited that life originated not in seawater as previously thought, but in smaller bodies of water with a K+/Na+ ratio necessary to sustain life. In this conditions sodium pump is not needed and the pump can originate later. But why the pump is needed if K+/Na+ ratio is good? The origin of the sodium pump in conditions where there is no natural need for it may require the agency of Providence. I have previously thought of the cell membrane as a means to preserve an environment where the replicating molecules survive and thus make them more viable than the molecules alone. In the above scenario we could have evaporating ponds providing the concentrations, then the cell membranes to protect them, perhaps in a semi-dormant phase, and then the pump. Enjoy
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Only one question: why membrane sodium pump is needed in the potassium pond? In the pond K+/Na+ ratio is the same as in the living cell. To contain the concentration when the pond is diluted (rains) and perhaps they get flushed out of the pond into a stream etc. So the proto-life is now capable of surviving drought with the membrane and flood with the pump. It is surviving to reproduce, it is evolving. I see "life" beginning when evolution begins - beneficial traits are passed down from generation to generation. See Definition of Life for discussion and Message 69 and Message 75 for more of my comments. Enjoy ps you can use the "peek" function to see how things are coded Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
quote: That was AZPaul3 in Message 9. The correct [reply] button is at the bottom of a post rather than at the top. Indeed, I like to think of it as a series of accidents, some happy some not so happy.
Sea tide floods potassium pond. And what happens after that? For the proto-life without a pump it has a problem maintaining it's optimum inner ecology, and osmosis would not help. Thus an "accident" that provided a pumping action would be beneficial, allowing it to survive and breed in the wider environment. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
We need physical mechanisms rather than general assumptions. ... Indeed, so now we need to look at what the physical mechanism is and then see if we can hypothesis and test how it could develop. Enjoy ps -- visited your lovely city in the 70's and rode on one of the hydrofoil boats.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD, you're welcome in St.Petersburg. Well I was there on a tour so I'm sure we saw the best side of it. I did get a chance to get out and walk around for a bit, and see the parks and canals, as well as the tour high spots.
From my point of view, this means that life has been made possible without the pump. Here are 4 steps of my argument. Well I do think that the modern cell is the product of billions of years of evolution, so it is a bit difficult to extrapolate back to the first working models. But we can attempt that by breaking it down into steps along the way. (1) self-replicating molecules arise, many varieties, and they interact and compete for materials, so there is selection of those best able to consistently reproduce their basic pattern. (2) a semi-permeable lipid membrane is developed - see Szostak Proto-Cell. (3) the semi-permeable membrane allows ions and other atoms or molecules to migrate and balance the inside with the outside environment via openings like ion channels, or what develops into ion channels. (4) the proto-cell develops the ability to close the ion channel\openings when the outside environment is not compatible with the inside "work environment" and go into a dormant stage or low energy state until the outside environment becomes compatible again. (5) an ion channel evolves into a ion pump -- see Ion channels versus ion pumps: the principal difference, in principle quote: Full paper available on-line free. There are also references to similar papers and papers that cite this paper. Seems like the similarities point to the pump evolving from the channel by the addition of a second gate. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : added at endby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The fundamental requirement: molecular evolution can take place only in the intracellular environment. No these conditions, no evolution. Evolution happens, that is all we need to know.
Biological evolution can not proceed in a non-biological conditions. [This also applies to RAZD's and AZPaul3's arguments.] It is an axiom. No, it is a tautology begging the question -- as soon as biological evolution occurs we have biological conditions. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : spby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Message 34, Vladimir Matveev: Biological evolution can not proceed in a non-biological conditions. Message 37' RAZD: as soon as biological evolution occurs we have biological conditions. What are these conditions in its physical nature? ... Part of the issue here is when does 'life' begin (and built into that is the question of what is 'life'). To my mind 'life' begins when (biological) evolution begins, but that is still pretty muddy (how many processes of evolution are involved). But I don't thinks there are significantly differences between just prior to and just post this OOL (origin of life) event. And since that point 'life' has become more and more complex. There was a discussion about this definition issue on Definition of Life. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
To me it seems as if Vlad is trying to bypass all those thousands of specialists on the subject and then wants to shout "victory". Well, I get the impression that he is concerned about something that he feels is being ignored by the specialists, and that he is looking for answers more than saying he has them. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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