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Author Topic:   Is it moral for God to punish us?
Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 46 of 145 (771258)
10-22-2015 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Raphael
10-22-2015 9:49 PM


I'm so sorry for the long post! It literally became out of hand I will shorten things down next reply.
Regards!
- Raph

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Raphael, posted 10-22-2015 9:49 PM Raphael has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 10-23-2015 5:07 AM Raphael has not replied
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 47 of 145 (771262)
10-23-2015 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Raphael
10-22-2015 9:50 PM


I'm so sorry for the long post!
Please don't apologize. I wish that you had the time to post more often.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 48 of 145 (771353)
10-24-2015 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Raphael
10-22-2015 9:49 PM


Raphael writes:
What caused Jesus death was that he literally claimed to be God. And not merely the Son of God either, he blatantly and openly claimed to be one with YHWH, the Jewish God that was supposed to be the only God. (John 10:30). His own people were so incensed by this that they attempted to kill him at least twice before his crucifixion, simply for claiming divinity.
This may be nit picking but I don't see it quite that way. As we read in John Chap 1, Jesus embodied the "Word (or Wisdom) of God. The Gospels essentially paint a picture of Yahweh's return to His people being done through the man Jesus. Jesus prayed to the Father and stated that equality with God the Father was not something that should be considered. Jesus didn't resurrect Himself. It was God who resurrected Him and it was God who performed the miracles through the man Jesus.
In Daniel 7 we have the image of the "Son of Man" being presented to the ancient of days and given dominion over the nations.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Raphael, posted 10-22-2015 9:49 PM Raphael has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 10-25-2015 12:57 AM GDR has replied
 Message 54 by Greatest I am, posted 10-26-2015 9:33 AM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 145 (771358)
10-25-2015 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
10-24-2015 10:47 PM


Who raised Jesus?
Jesus didn't resurrect Himself. It was God who resurrected Him
I've always understood that scripture shows Father, Son and Holy Spirit all raised Him from the dead. One scripture verse showing that He raised Himself is:
John 2:19:
"Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up"
He was speaking of his body.
Another is John 10:17-18
I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
Here's a page of Bible.org that lays it all out:
God the Father raised Jesus (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37).
◦ God raised Him up again (Rom. 4:24; 6:4 [through the glory of the Father]); 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12).
◦ The Holy Spirit is somehow involved in the resurrection of Jesus:
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised
Romans 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
◦ The Son Himself lays down His life and takes it up again John 10:17-18
It seems as though the answer is that all of the Trinity is involved in the Resurrection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 10-24-2015 10:47 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 10-25-2015 7:04 PM Faith has replied
 Message 55 by Greatest I am, posted 10-26-2015 9:40 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 50 of 145 (771406)
10-25-2015 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
10-25-2015 12:57 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Hi Faith. Put the word raised into a word search in an online Bible and see just how many times it says that God raised Jesus.
How do you explain Jesus praying in Gethsemane to not have to go through with what He knew lay ahead of Him in Jerusalem. Just who was He praying to? Himself?
If you want to understand Jesus' divinity read Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to The Ancient of Days.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 10-25-2015 12:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 10-25-2015 7:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 145 (771409)
10-25-2015 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
10-25-2015 7:04 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Hi Faith. Put the word raised into a word search in an online Bible and see just how many times it says that God raised Jesus.
Yes, and the quote I gave showed the great preponderance of quotes to that effect. But that doesn't make a difference to someone who believes in the Trinity, you know.
How do you explain Jesus praying in Gethsemane to not have to go through with what He knew lay ahead of Him in Jerusalem. Just who was He praying to? Himself?
Ah GDR, even if you don't believe in the Trinity you really ought to understand it better than this. Jesus as a man -- and as Son too -- was subordinate in rank to God, but that doesn't change the fact that He was God the Son, equal in SUBSTANCE to the Father and the Holy Spirit. As Man He prayed to God, He was completely in our place when it comes to suffering.
There are scriptures that show the difference in rank and scriptures that show the equality of divine nature, both. The scriptural basis for the Trinity has been presented here in great detail on more than one thread. I'll present it again if you want me to.
If you want to understand Jesus' divinity read Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to The Ancient of Days.
I do understand Jesus' divinity and you really should quote or explain that sort of reference instead of requiring me to go there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 52 of 145 (771452)
10-26-2015 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Raphael
10-22-2015 9:49 PM


Raphael
You have taken a more literal view yet you do not like the assumptions I get from logic and reason of the literal while saying that all you assumptions are correct by quoting what others people have put down and assuming that those are correct. Yet you do not break my logic trails. That just puts me up against the Saints. They are not here for me to argue against, especially when they do not make logical sense. Like talking animals and a water walking God.
---------
What's so hard to believe about such simple things? The majority of people today believe in the supernatural, whether that be ghosts, demons, spirits, aliens. Why should I buy into the non-miracle bias our post-modern historical method has adopted?
It is, of course, your choice.
Chose faith if you like. Faith is the biggest part of supernatural belief.
Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.
Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.
The God of the OT says, Come now, and let us reason together, [Isaiah 1:18]
How can literalists reason with God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?
Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the mind as it is pure idol worship.
Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.
----------
Now, humans know that a way other than God's way exists, and it is automatically enticing, because selfishness is always gratifying.
Indeed. This brings to mind the ever so great commandments you mentioned above.
Note how selfish God’s first few commandment re towards himself. If selfishness is evil as you say, then God is the most selfish. You have put some others name above his for creating weather. Whose name would you put above his for selfishness?
----------
I am a senior theology major completing my studies at university
Impressive. I have little in the way of formal education as compared to you. It is a shame that you have wasted so much of your life believing in the supernatural and stifling your ability to use reason and logic. I do recognize though that when someone invests as much effort into something wrong as you have, that it is hard to drop it for something better. Belief and idol worship is not as good as thinking. Trust me on this as you let your faith guide you into your supernatural beliefs. Just because you think yourself in a majority does not mean that you are right.
You choose, likely because of that supernatural belief, to ignore what the Jews thought of their own work in Genesis as our elevation and not our fall. You have also made the creator of all, just a creator of some. Quite an insult to God, even as you deny God’s own words in Genesis of man becoming as Gods in the way we think. I don’t know quite where you want to go from here so I just put those few remarks above.
God cannot die, yet you have him dying. Men of honor, whom you think Jesus chose as disciples would not allow one of their own to just walk away to turn Jesus in without saying a word in trying to dissuade him and pick from other bibles to form you opinion while ignoring the older and better translations. That is not quite honest of you. You also have God creating only the light while and say someone else created the dark while ignoring that scriptures say he created all things.
You make your God into -----
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30lGrarz3MQ
My Gnostic Christian version of God created all things and that is why we are all saved, while your creed has the vast majority of us end in hell or death. You can have your loser who can’t quite get things right. I will keep mine that has created everything right. In both the mythical and logical sense of course.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Raphael, posted 10-22-2015 9:49 PM Raphael has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 53 of 145 (771453)
10-26-2015 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Raphael
10-22-2015 9:50 PM


Raphael
No problem buddy.
I like to see how far someone will go to make absurdities seen not so.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Raphael, posted 10-22-2015 9:50 PM Raphael has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 54 of 145 (771454)
10-26-2015 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
10-24-2015 10:47 PM


GDR
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
This seems to bolster your view.
But where in your view did Jesus think the Father was?
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Jesus' God was a man. Think of the Jewish Divine Council and the fact that even today, a Rabbi can overrule the written traditions and that God.
An example of Jesus taking that role was when he said that the Sabbath was created for man and not man for the Sabbath and that one could work on the Sabbath. He was overruling the written tradition as the oral one is the important one.
Man is the supreme creature on earth and not old written records.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 10-24-2015 10:47 PM GDR has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 55 of 145 (771455)
10-26-2015 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
10-25-2015 12:57 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Faith
Jesus said to seek God. Not to seek him.
If all three, Father, Son and the holy ghost were in Jesus and thus were the sacrifice, who was there to receive the sacrifice?
If Jesus gave us the prayer of our Father who art in heaven, and Jesus, the father and the holy ghost were right here on earth showing us this prayer, is that an indication that these Gnostic Christians words from Jesus are correct?
Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 10-25-2015 12:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 10-26-2015 9:48 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 145 (771457)
10-26-2015 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Greatest I am
10-26-2015 9:40 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Gnostic stuff just sounds like a lot of pseudophilosophical babble, silly sophistries. Nothing to do with the spirit of scripture given by God.
Just as a matter of fact, Jesus said to seek the Kingdom of God, not God Himself. Perhaps a nitpick but I couldn't remember Him saying that and He didn't. However, He IS God so seeking God would include seeking Him.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Greatest I am, posted 10-26-2015 9:40 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 8:26 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 57 of 145 (771483)
10-26-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Greatest I am
10-26-2015 9:23 AM


Greatest I am writes:
I like to see how far someone will go to make absurdities seen not so.
That's why we follow your threads. It's entertaining to see you stand on your head and run away at the same time.

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 Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 10-26-2015 9:23 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 58 of 145 (771544)
10-27-2015 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
10-26-2015 9:48 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Faith
"Gnostic stuff just sounds like a lot of pseudophilosophical babble, silly sophistries."
Compare that to your belief in angels and demons and talking animals and give your head a shake.
Who is the greater fool?
Jesus shows you where spirituality resides and you throw it away for supernatural garbage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&l...
Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
Remain in poverty.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 10-26-2015 9:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 10-27-2015 9:04 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 145 (771609)
10-27-2015 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Greatest I am
10-27-2015 8:26 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
As I said, and I repeat: Gnostic stuff just sounds like a lot of pseudophilosophical babble, silly sophistries.
The gnostic words imputed to Jesus simply are not Jesus. His sheep hear His voice and will not follow a fake Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 8:26 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2015 12:07 AM Faith has replied
 Message 62 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:25 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(2)
Message 60 of 145 (771613)
10-28-2015 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
10-27-2015 9:04 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Faith writes:
As I said, and I repeat: Gnostic stuff just sounds like a lot of pseudophilosophical babble, silly sophistries.
The gnostic words imputed to Jesus simply are not Jesus. His sheep hear His voice and will not follow a fake Jesus.
If anyone is tempted to give credence to the gnostic gospels, simply read them next to the canonical gospels. (They are easily available on the web) You will see dramatic differences between the two.
The Gospel of Thomas is a typical example. It contains no narrative or historical content, but is just a collection of apparently random sayings attributed to Jesus. It claims to contain hidden, secret knowledge:
Gospel of Thomas writes:
These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.
Many of its sayings are similar or identical to those found in the canonical gospels. But other sayings are just goofy or offensive, e.g.
Gospel of Thomas writes:
7 Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. 2And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."
...
114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
2 Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. 3For every female who makes herself male will enter the domain of Heaven."
The gnostic gospels are completely different from the canonical gospels. The canonical gospels give Jesus' sayings a historical setting and incorporate them within a narrative which has a theological purpose and direction.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 10-27-2015 9:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 10-28-2015 12:12 AM kbertsche has not replied
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