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Author Topic:   Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0
Admin
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From: EvC Forum
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(1)
Message 406 of 860 (770910)
10-15-2015 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Faith
10-15-2015 12:09 PM


Re: End of Evolution usual gangster attack
Faith writes:
Right. Punish the victim. Great.
More like behave outrageously and illogically while doing whatever you please, then claim persecution when requested to stop. The Forum Guidelines are for everyone, including you. I can't enforce the guidelines for everyone but you.
I would have objected to the short shrift given your opening post were it not for the short shrift you gave all the prior feedback from earlier threads. When I asked you to take your off-topic posts to a new thread it was accompanied with the request that you explain your ideas, not just repeat the same explanations yet again and tell people to "think about it beyond their usual level." I wouldn't have promoted your thread myself without requesting more explanation or clarification.
No one even understands why you think what you're doing has any validity. You strongly reject evolution, yet you wouldn't accept people just telling you to "think about it beyond your usual level," right? So if you wouldn't accept that argument directed at you, why do you think it's okay to direct it at others?
You're free to resume discussion just as soon as you adopt a willingness to actually discuss, which means at least attempting to make your ideas make sense to others.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Faith, posted 10-15-2015 12:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Faith, posted 10-15-2015 6:14 PM Admin has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 407 of 860 (770920)
10-15-2015 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Admin
10-15-2015 2:51 PM


Re: End of Evolution usual gangster attack
I strongly disagree with your assessment, Percy, I strongly disagree that I haven't done all I can to make myself clear. There's nothing more I can do.
No one even understands why you think what you're doing has any validity.
That is only too obvious.
You strongly reject evolution, yet you wouldn't accept people just telling you to "think about it beyond your usual level," right?
Depends on how specific the material I'm asked to think about is. What I'm asking is to think about a very specific and limited argument.
ABE: I don't know what you mean about how I gave short shrift to anyone. What was done to me was nothing but personal attacks and you can enforce that on me too, I'm not objecting to that, but to let a dozen drive-by shootings stand on my thread without any attempt to answer the OP is really unconscionable of you. When I don't want to spend time answering the same wrong statement for the billionth time is that "short shrift" That's the case with Blue Jay's mutation stuff, which had already answered, and PaulK's which I'd answered a billion times, and NoNukes who never makes any sense anyway. The only previous thread I remember you might be talking about is where HBD kept posting that incomprehensible graphic of little bugs climbing around some inflamed pimple like bumps which was supposed to be an assessment of population fitness which had nothing to do with my argument that I could see and I didn't know how to respond to it. He never explained though I let him try to make his case over many posts.
As long as nobody has really dealt with my argument, and nobody has, I'm not following any more rabbit trails away from the topic.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Admin, posted 10-15-2015 2:51 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Admin, posted 10-15-2015 8:10 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 409 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-15-2015 10:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 408 of 860 (770923)
10-15-2015 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Faith
10-15-2015 6:14 PM


Re: End of Evolution usual gangster attack
Hi Faith,
We're just going to have to disagree. As I said before, you're free to resume discussion just as soon as you adopt a willingness to actually discuss, which means at least attempting to make your ideas make sense to others. That's all that's being asked of you, that's all that's being asked of anybody. No one here is exempt from answering challenges to their ideas. I can't believe you're even asking for something so outlandish.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Faith, posted 10-15-2015 6:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(7)
Message 409 of 860 (770925)
10-15-2015 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Faith
10-15-2015 6:14 PM


The Undead Argument
As long as nobody has really dealt with my argument, and nobody has ...
Faith, we've pointed out why your "argument" is still wrong. As wrong as it was the last time, and the time before that. And the time before that. What more do you expect us to do? --- drive a stake through its black withered heart and bury it at a crossroads?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Faith, posted 10-15-2015 6:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Faith, posted 10-15-2015 11:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 410 of 860 (770926)
10-15-2015 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Dr Adequate
10-15-2015 10:50 PM


Re: The Undead Argument
The argument is right and you've all been wrong every time. I answer you and you don't get it, and that's your fault, not mine. Nothing more to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-15-2015 10:50 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-16-2015 12:01 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 413 by dwise1, posted 10-16-2015 2:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 411 of 860 (770927)
10-16-2015 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Faith
10-15-2015 11:02 PM


Re: The Undead Argument
The argument is right and you've all been wrong every time.
If you make that unsupported assertion just seventeen more times, you'll suddenly convince everyone.
... nah, just yanking your chain. Reality doesn't actually work like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Faith, posted 10-15-2015 11:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(6)
Message 412 of 860 (770928)
10-16-2015 1:37 AM


Disgusted by Faith's vile tactics
I wish to particularly complain about her posts in this thread which are a nasty and thoroughly dishonest slap in the face to everyone who dared to attempt honest discussion with her.
Personal conviction that the objections are no good is no substitute for real answers to them. And that is all Faith has. That, and the lie that she has already answered them.
That's no reason to shut down discussion as Faith has attempted. It is bullying, pure and simple.
And then to go whining and lying to the moderators because her bullying didn't work, because people dared to hit back, to claim that she was the victim. That's just disgusting.
Faith says she wants people to think about her argument - but she doesn't. The objections to her argument are the product of thinking - really thinking - about her argument. And yet she demands that the objections be discarded without thought, just on her say so.
What Faith demands is unthinking agreement. Which is death to discussion - the purpose of this site. And she dares complain that the moderators oppose her ? Ridiculous.
Edited by Admin, : Fix typos.

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(5)
Message 413 of 860 (770930)
10-16-2015 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Faith
10-15-2015 11:02 PM


Re: The Undead Argument
Faith, have you ever encountered a person who drove you to the point of having an uncontrollable desire to grab them and shake them awake? Well, Faith, for all of us here, you are that person. Which is why I have promised myself that when I cannot exercise my best judgement, I need to keep well away for any nonsens ... er, ... anything that you post.
I am a retired US Navy Chief Petty Officer, albeit out of 29 years of service in the Navy Reserve, preceded by six years active duty in the US Air Force (which just immediately reduced me in the esteem of fellow sailors, though I would remind them to review the casuality statistics from WWII which show the Army Air Force's casualities to far exceed those of the Navy and US Marine Corps combined -- like everybody else, we have paid our dues many times over in blood). Throughout my decades of service, we NCOs, petty officers, chief petty officers were constantly being trained in the ways of management.
One recurring topic was communication -- if you were starting to fall asleep, now is the time to wake up! All communication involves a communications channel which consists of a transmitter, a medium, and a receiver. For effective communication (ie, the transfer of information) to occur, all elements of the communications channel must be in functioning properly.
Within any communications channel, this gives us three places where communications could break down. First comes the medium. For a worse-case scenario, we are trying to pass the word to all the workers on a factory floor while work is in progress. It's noisy, the acoustics are lousy, and hardly anybody can hear what is being said. So then here the medium is wrong. If The Word is to be passed down verbally, then it should be done in a setting where other auditory distractions are absent. Having written communications is another consideration, especially for those who were absent.
In our case (which I am building), the medium is the forum itself, all in written form, so acoustics should have no meaning.
Admittedly, choosing the next element is very close between the transmitter and the receiver, but since the important one is the transmitter, I shall choose the receiver. Still, it is so very close, since you are yourself a receiver.
Now we have the receiver. The message comes through the channel and whether it is received or not depends on the receiver. That would immediately mean that the message would have had to have been crafted for the receiver. If you are an admiral passing The Word to your unit commanders, then you would have crafted your message for them, but if you're passing The Word to the fighting men on the front lines, then your message would be very different -- think of George C. Scott's speech at the beginning of "Patton", a speech directed at the individual fighting men.
And we also have the receivers to consider, including their perspective, their experience, and their knowledge. For example, if you were giving a brief that included classified information, your presentation would be very different when briefing an audience with a minimum of top secret clearances as opposed to troops with a minimum of confidential. Also (assuming a combat environment), a brief given to the general troops would have to be different than one given to troops who are intimately involved in what's actually going on.
So, IOW, if you try to bullshit somebody who knows better, then they will catch you in your lie each and every time.
Of course, there is also the scenario when the audience is hostile to the message. But that places the onus on the transmitter to send the message in a form that the receivers could consider.
That leaves us with you, the transmitter. If your message isn't getting across, then why is that? The communication medium appears to be clear. The receivers are rejecting it. Why is that? It is in a form that they cannot accept. So what could you do?
I am a dancer, a partner dancer. That means I do partner dancing. In partner dancing, you have a couple who dances and one person is the leader and the other is the follower -- traditionally, a male leads and a female follows, but that can be rather flexible (eg, once for practice a woman tried to lead me in Argentine Tango and I tried to follow). There is a general rule in partner dancing that if something goes wrong then it's the leader's fault -- actually, there are a lot of things that the follower can do to sabotage a move. It wasn't just 28 years of on-the-job training in marriage, but also practicality that prompted me to accept the leader's responsibility. While I can try to lead her, if she doesn't listen then what can I do? Well, I can do my utmost best to lead her as clearly as I possibly can! I have no direct control over her. Eg, in a salsa class in a bar, a drunken woman jumped in to balance the class (typically, it would be two men to one woman). We needed to turn her to her right, but this woman insisted on turning to her left despite all attempts to lead her. Still, even in such extreme conditions, the most that I can do is to provide the best lead that I possibly can.
In less extreme situations, I as a leader (transmitter) would experience situations where the follower (receiver) wasn't receiving the lead (the message) properly. Maybe it was her fault, but what good would it do to blame her? In silver and gold level ballroom, I learned that what sabotages a move can be very subtle; eg, while she seemed to be at fault, it was because she was responding to something subtly wrong in my frame or in my lead, something I was not aware of, but which resulted in a cascade of failure as the entire move fell apart.
From all that I learned that I can only be responsible for what I do. And that I must do that to the best of my ability. I cannot improve my partner, so I must improve myself. I accept responsibility for all problems that arise, since no matter where the fault actually lies I still must always work on improving myself.
Faith, you are the transmitter. The medium is clear. If the receivers are not receiving your message, then you need to transmit it in a form that they can receive.
Never blame your follower! You are the transmitter, so you are the leader. You are responsible for getting your message across. It is not the receivers' responsibility! You cannot do anything about them! You can only do anything about yourself! So do it already!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Faith, posted 10-15-2015 11:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(9)
Message 414 of 860 (771057)
10-18-2015 9:55 PM


Free Faith...
Please ubsuspend Faith.
Yes, she's a biblical literalist and creationist, but she is OUR biblical literalist and creationist.
Yes, she is consistently wrong, and incapable of learning from our posts, but she isn't going to change for evidence, reason, logic, or any thing else.
But I've grown used to her, and even to like her. This place wouldn't be the same without her.
(I see I have typos. Power is out and this in from an IPad and I don't know how to go back
And correct them. Apologies.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Admin, posted 10-19-2015 8:44 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 419 by Faith, posted 10-20-2015 2:27 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 415 of 860 (771061)
10-19-2015 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Coyote
10-18-2015 9:55 PM


Re: Free Faith...
Faith's suspension has nothing to do with whether any of her positions are right or wrong, and everything to do with how she handles feedback and differences of opinion and new information, and how well she conforms to the Forum Guidelines. EvC Forum's Forum Guidelines help maintain our high quality of discussion.
For the past year or so I've tried several different approaches hoping to nudge Faith toward better compliance, but she has instead became worse. I hoped she might begin seeing some things a little from other people's point of view, but that never happened. I hoped she might become persuaded to stay more tightly focused on facts, but that never happened, either. I hoped she might begin listening to strict moderation, but that also didn't work. If any one of these things, or other things I tried, had happened I think it might have been enough, but none of them did. Faith's certitude of her righteousness causes her to reject all counsel but her own.
Faith's suspension will expire later today. I will no longer explore approaches that might coax Faith into constructive discussion. For now I'll just enforce the Forum Guidelines. She knows what the rules are, so whether she stays or goes is up her.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Coyote, posted 10-18-2015 9:55 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 10-19-2015 11:48 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied
 Message 417 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2015 2:16 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 416 of 860 (771065)
10-19-2015 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Admin
10-19-2015 8:44 AM


Re: Free Faith...
Admin writes:
For now I'll just enforce the Forum Guidelines.
Faith subscribes to religious beliefs where it is impossible to follow to her God's guidelines - i.e. it is necessary to depend on His grace. If we want to keep creationists on this forum we really need separate guidelines for godly-minded people and socially-responsible people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Admin, posted 10-19-2015 8:44 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 417 of 860 (771095)
10-20-2015 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Admin
10-19-2015 8:44 AM


Re: Free Faith...
I hoped {Faith} might begin seeing some things a little from other people's point of view, but that never happened.
Nor could it ever.
It has been my long-standing personal bias that what drives people away from Christianity is the fact that "creation science" is completely and utterly false. Statistics have shown that 65% to 80% of the youth raised on "creation science"-type theologies are not only fleeing those theologies, but actually running away as fast as they can abandoning all religion in the process.
My own personal prejudice and bias is that the reason for that are the lies their parents and religious leaders had raised them on about science. But former "bathed in the Blood of the Lamb" most fundamentalist Ed Babinski (https://www.facebook.com/edbabinski) posted a blog that says something different.
I do not have a viable link to that original blog. So from memory, that blog verified that college education contributed very heavily towards deconversion. But it wasn't the science education that was at fault, but rather the humanities education.
A fundamentalist student, as well as students from other similarly theologically restrictive backgrounds, has been taught to view everything in a very restrictive manner. The humanities not only includes philosophy but also English Literature. Philosophy courses exposes the students to other ideas, other perspectives. So does literature courses, in which the student must be able to view things through the writer's perspective, which is to say through someone else's perspective.
That blog had cited the novel experience of perceiving something from another perspective as being more damaging to the "fundamentalist" mind than the facts of science.
At all costs, Faith must maintain her own theological focus. To "begin seeing some things a little from other people's point of view" would only weaken her position. Would only weaken it. She cannot allow that to happen, at any cost.
That is her curse. I cannot say that that is any kind of gift.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Admin, posted 10-19-2015 8:44 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Faith, posted 10-20-2015 2:25 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 418 of 860 (771096)
10-20-2015 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by dwise1
10-20-2015 2:16 AM


Re: Free Faith...
Just for the record, since it seems to have been forgotten, I did not become a Christian until my mid to late forties, and didn't discover the creationist arguments until a few years later. Before that I was a pretty standard liberal atheist humanities-educated person, so your theory doesn't work in my case.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2015 2:16 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2015 2:54 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 421 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2015 3:06 AM Faith has replied
 Message 424 by dwise1, posted 10-20-2015 10:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 419 of 860 (771097)
10-20-2015 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Coyote
10-18-2015 9:55 PM


Re: Free Faith...
Wow, thanks for that sweet post and for all the people who cheered it. That's quite touching.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Coyote, posted 10-18-2015 9:55 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 420 of 860 (771098)
10-20-2015 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Faith
10-20-2015 2:25 AM


Re: Free Faith...
I sincerely apologize for that post.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Faith, posted 10-20-2015 2:25 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Admin, posted 10-20-2015 8:43 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
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