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Author | Topic: How long does it take to evolve? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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And my question still stands: is there any conceivable critique of modern science that we would find acceptable? Well, a minimum requirement would be that someone should tell me what it is.
It seems like we're just really adept at handwaving away any critique of modern science on the grounds that the person delivering it must be ignorant ... Au contraire. I have asked repeatedly if you or Lamden can tell me what his critique is, and have been told in return that since he's a philosopher and an "intellectual" his critique must be worth taking seriously. What I have not been told is what it is. No-one has handwaved it away, we haven't seen it yet. But we've been asked to admire it sight unseen on the grounds that the person delivering it must not be ignorant. I'll ask you again: can you tell me what his "critique" is, or can you just tell me that he's an intellectual? Only his credentials interest me less than his ideas.
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1423 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
Percy writes:
Fair enough. There just seems to be a siege mentality where people would rather not acknowledge problems with scientific inquiry. And it's certainly not as if every attempt to describe such problems has done so in good faith, so a certain amount of defensiveness is to be expected. I think Nagel and Lewontin succeeded in at least producing food for thought.
If you're criticizing those who are skeptical of philosophical criticisms of scientific inquiry and modes of thought, then I don't we are, at least not all of us.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Mrhambre writes:
I think it has more to do with wanting to get on with the inquiry instead of obsessing about how the inquiry is done. It's like going in vacation instead of incessantly planning the perfect vacation.
There just seems to be a siege mentality where people would rather not acknowledge problems with scientific inquiry.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
MrH writes: There just seems to be a siege mentality where people would rather not acknowledge problems with scientific inquiry. This is just your bloody straw man again. The entire premise of the scientific method is based on skeptism; including the using the right method for the task. So far no better method has been found for resolving the problems about stuff around us. Just thinking about it really hard for long periods is generally not nearly enough and often useless - theoretical ideas have to be tested to have real explanatory value. But if you have something real to bring to the table, rather than a general, unsubstantaited moan, let's have it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
I had planned to not comment further, but then you said this:
There just seems to be a siege mentality where people would rather not acknowledge problems with scientific inquiry. So far, you have not pointed out any valid problems with scientific enquiry raised by philosophers, that I can see. Could you point some out?
And it's certainly not as if every attempt to describe such problems has done so in good faith, so a certain amount of defensiveness is to be expected. I see skepticism more than defensiveness. If you are talking about here at EvC, well this is a debate forum so you should expect disagreement if someone thinks you are wrong. If someone describes problems in bad faith I would expect that pretty much anything they had to say after that can be disregarded. One lie can sink a career.
I think Nagel and Lewontin succeeded in at least producing food for thought. I chewed on it for a bit and then spat it out when I realized it tasted like crap. I noticed when reading what you have written over that last few months that you seem quite enamored with some philosophers and several times I thought to myself that you were putting a different spin on their positions than I did. That is ok, we all see things our own way when it comes to opinions. Personally I love pretty much everything Richard Feynman had to say, go figure.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
MrH writes: Okay. I still say that no one would have proposed that billions of dollars of taxpayers' money be spent on the Human Genome Project if there weren't a popular misconception of how crucial a detailed knowledge of DNA is to the good of society. The progressive in me wonders how much improvement in personal and social well-being those billions could have generated if we were as adamant about understanding the environmental and socioeconomic aspects of phenomena like disease and deviance. Why is it a popular misconception that a detailed knowledge of DNA is to the good of society? And why do you think we are not spending billions on fighting disease and deviance? And why are you trapping yourself, yet again, in false choices?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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MrH writes:
Why is it a popular misconception that a detailed knowledge of DNA is to the good of society? And why do you think we are not spending billions on fighting disease and deviance? And why are you trapping yourself, yet again, in false choices? Okay. I still say that no one would have proposed that billions of dollars of taxpayers' money be spent on the Human Genome Project if there weren't a popular misconception of how crucial a detailed knowledge of DNA is to the good of society. The progressive in me wonders how much improvement in personal and social well-being those billions could have generated if we were as adamant about understanding the environmental and socioeconomic aspects of phenomena like disease and deviance. Bingo!! As I read this, something just clicked into place. Thinking back over the MrHambre posts that I have read there is a strong undercurrent of disapproval or dislike of science. He likes philosophers who criticise science whether they know what they are talking about or not. I may be wrong, but that's how it seems to me. The Human Genome Project yielded so much more than just detailed knowledge about DNA. There were incredible improvements in the technology and a huge new branch of science, molecular biology has grown up and is starting to have positive impacts in medicine, agriculture, and many branches of science. I guess I am a bit of a cheerleader, but one of my very close friends and co-researcher on several projects has become a major player in molecular biology and she just received an $800K grant for her research.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
There just seems to be a siege mentality where people would rather not acknowledge problems with scientific inquiry. Actually there's a "mentality" where people ask you what these problems are and you won't tell us.
I think Nagel and Lewontin succeeded in at least producing food for thought. If you think that Nagel has succeeded in "producing food for thought", do you know what it is he actually said? Or are you just supposing that he must have made some good point, though you don't know what it is, because he's an "intellectual"? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 830 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Theodoric writes: You do realize that Happy Days was a fictional TV show don't you? Tragic news I just learned today -American actor Al Molinaro, who starred as "Big Al" Delvecchio in sitcom Happy Days, has died at the age of 96.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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Tanypteryx writes: I also got the same undercurrent of disapproval about science from that person. Actually, in the posts from that person I picked up a very great distaste for anything scientific. Thinking back over the MrHambre posts that I have read there is a strong undercurrent of disapproval or dislike of science. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
DWise1 writes:
Speaking of which, you are no doubt well aware that Wise is German for "white". And I am called Schwartz. And according to Michael Jackson, "It doesn't matter if you're black or white", so I guess we can still be freinds. But back to Nagel (German for "nail"). Wise is not German for "white". It is not even German. Wei is "white". Yes, it has very commonly been changed to "Wise", but that is not my case. When my ancestor from Baden arrived to board that ship in Le Havre, he gave his name as "Wies". In German, that could have referred to a name associated with "meadow", "Wiese". Or to the town of Wies. I do not know which it is and am still trying to research it. The thing about "Nagel" meaning "nail" was a pun meaning that this guy Nagel seems to think that he had "nailed"something.
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