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Author | Topic: Is Christianity Evil? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: You have singled out empathy as a special, god given, attribute for no other reason than it correlates with your beliefs system. This 'still small voice' and 'heart' stuff is just you saying god does it. In fact it's just another emotion like anger or fear. It's a human instinct (which is found in many other social animals.) Why do you not think that anger - 'the turbulent, large voice' is not the devil? Or do you? Your position is also based on your atheistic beliefs. I stated earlier that as a Christian my beliefs are based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection, in spite of what jar says, then Jesus becomes something of a delusional egomaniac with some really good ideas which can also be found elsewhere. If then I am correct about the resurrection, then it makes sense that God has confirmed the life and message of Jesus. I have course made my argument for basic theism in many other threads. As for the devil I am kinda agnostic. I think that if we think of him as a metaphorical figure representing the dark or selfish side of life we are on a safe track.
Tangle writes: I've tried to explain this to you before but you seem to prefer to forget it. Most of the brain does not deal with rational decision making - executive functioning. Almost all of it - the most primitive parts deal with autonomous functioning - the things that allow you to breath and walk and pump blood around your body without having to actually think about it. Empathy is one such autonomus function - we don't think about wether we feel sorry for another person's predicament, we instinctively feel it. That instinct is developed to greater or lessor degree by traing and background. But can be entirely missing. This feeling can be seen with fMRI and is not in your control - like a knee jerk reflex, it's not a thought process it's a reaction. Of course after the feeling of compassion happens, the rational brain can then decide what to do about it, but the body has already cast its vote. Empathy and compassion is not a thought process or a rational choice it starts as a feeling and often stays that way. I have no background in this, but what you are describing is a process. We also know that peoples empathy and reactions to empathy change. They are impacted by others as Dawkins talks about with his memes and who knows how many other factors. There is however no way that one can rule out that our hearts are impacted by that still small voice. We simply know that people change. Also again, you are describing a process. It is a process that exists and whether or not it is the result of nothing but natural processes or if it is part of a designed process, (no I'm not into ID), is a matter of belief. Edited by GDR, : typoHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Your position is also based on your atheistic beliefs. To coin a phrase 'Oh Good grief'. My position is based on our hard won scientific knowledge. You have singled out a specific human emotion called compassion or empathy and made it supernatural. Does that really make sense to you? Empathy is a physiological, measurable, predictable, replicable, reflex reaction found in all people - with the exception the mentally ill.
I have no background in this As it seems so important to you, why don't you read some papers on it - these things are regularly reported in the press. It seems daft ro me to carry on making mistakes about the stuff we're learning about.
Also again, you are describing a process. It is a process that exists and whether or not it is the result of nothing but natural processes or if it is part of a designed process, (no I'm not into ID), is a matter of belief. It is part of a process and it does exist - it's real and it's natural. It's no different than happiness, love or anger, lust, fear, saddness - whatever the complex list is now. There's no reason whatsoever to single empathy out as special and non-evolved. Of course you can say that your god set all that in motion at 'the creation' and I can't argue with that but I can argue with you if - as seems to be the case - that you are saying that god is intervening with this still little voice stuff in real time. Is that your position?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: I can argue with you if - as seems to be the case - that you are saying that god is intervening with this still little voice stuff in real time. I believe this. I believe that God intervenes. I cant describe how it happens--There is no concrete evidence that it has happened, or is happening, or will happen....and thus I have no defense in support of my belief. My point is that I still believe. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: believe this. I believe that God intervenes. I cant describe how it happens--There is no concrete evidence that it has happened, or is happening, or will happen....and thus I have no defense in support of my belief. Well that's your prerogative - you can believe what you like. But it's rather hard to unscramble just what it is that you and GDR mean by this 'still small voice'. In this discussion it's been about feeling empathy and compassion for others and therefore being motivated to help them. Are you saying that the feeling of empathy you have when you see another human suffer is god speaking directly to you every time you feel it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Are you saying that the feeling of empathy you have when you see another human suffer is god speaking directly to you every time you feel it? No. Everyone has general empathy. I am suggesting that God places specific people on our hearts...people who otherwise would be largely shunned. Everyone can rescue a puppy, but it takes a real heart to rescue some old drunk with no redeeming qualities. I am also suggesting that God works through people (such as yourself)who may be unaware or oblivious of His presence. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Well there's nothing I can say to that Phat except you're just making stuff up.
Don't you think it more likely that people have different quantities of empathy like they have different quantities of height? That they might pick up caring values from others or that they may just find vocation that suits them? Why does god have to get directly involved and how? Why you and not me, or the guy next door? And how do you know?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
AHEM! Aren't you the one who's always preaching against that?
Everyone can rescue a puppy, but it takes a real heart to rescue some old drunk with no redeeming qualities.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My intention was not to preach against helping old downtrodden.
My point is that doing so will not enhance your status with the Creator. I guess that my whole irritation at your admonition was because I felt forced to do. I value that freedom highly. to choose not may oftentimes be a wrong choice. Were you I, would you surrender the freedom?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Jesus said it will; in fact, it's the ONLY way to enhance your status with the creator.
My point is that doing so will not enhance your status with the Creator. Phat writes:
But it's God/Jesus doing the forcing. You want to have communion with God without doing actually doing what He tells you to do.
I guess that my whole irritation at your admonition was because I felt forced to do.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jesus was talking to Jews when He preached works.
Paul (whom you guys seemingly ignore) showed us that our righteousness was as filthy rags and that there was and is no way to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift. It is not given only to those who hear and do. In fact, having confidence in your own salvation based on how much works you do is a surefire recipe for failure.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No He wasn't. He was talking to "all nations".
Jesus was talking to Jews when He preached works. Phat writes:
If you're relying on second-hand commentary rather than the Son of God, don't forget that James said, "Faith without works is dead."
Paul (whom you guys seemingly ignore) showed us that our righteousness was as filthy rags and that there was and is no way to earn salvation. Phat writes:
The only way you can tell who has received the gift is by their deeds. By their fruit ye shall know them, not by their saying, "Lord! Lord!"
Salvation is a gift. It is not given only to those who hear and do. Phat writes:
It isn't about having confidence in your salvation. NOBODY should have confidence in their salvation. You should be constantly asking yourself, "Did I do enough?" You should be expecting God to ask you on the Judgement Day, "What about that homeless man you stepped over on the night of April 17th?"
In fact, having confidence in your own salvation based on how much works you do is a surefire recipe for failure.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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You are dismissing the influence of the Holy Spirit. Pauls "information" was directly from God when he was knocked off his High Horse on the Damascus Road. There are several examples of the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Peter, despite having been on the mount of transfiguration, denied Christ 3 times as jesus said he would do. Later he was instrumental in 3000 people coming to know the Lord. You seem to think that the message is simply one of trying to do ones best with no help from God. My point is that a transformed life is never achieved through works. The only thing one gets is a satiatedconscience. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Correct. You can't invoke the Holy Spirit to trump Jesus.
You are dismissing the influence of the Holy Spirit. Phat writes:
Paul may have been in perfect communion with God at the gates of Damascus but we're talking about what he said, not what he "knew". He can possibly be forgiven for making Get Out of Hell Free sound easy for the Romans, Corinthians, et al. After all, you don't sell Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises by telling people how hard it is to make a profit. Pauls "information" was directly from God when he was knocked off his High Horse on the Damascus Road. There are several examples of the influence of the Holy Spirit. But you, having Jesus' own words (supposedly) to go by, have no excuse for watering down the message.
Phat writes:
I have never said that you won't get any help from God. I have said that you can't COUNT on any help from God. You are REQUIRED to do your best, whether He helps you or not. Otherwise, you're a goat.
You seem to think that the message is simply one of trying to do ones best with no help from God. Phat writes:
Your point is wrong. The "transformation" IS the works.
My point is that a transformed life is never achieved through works.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: You are dismissing the influence of the Holy Spirit. Pauls "information" was directly from God when he was knocked off his High Horse on the Damascus Road. There are several examples of the influence of the Holy Spirit. Actually, if you read the Bible accounts of Paul's experience what you find is not an example of "The Holy Spirit" doing anything but rather a tale getting embellished and expanded as it is repeated over time. You know that since I have pointed out the progressio0n of the tale passages to you specifically several times.
Phat writes: Peter, despite having been on the mount of transfiguration, denied Christ 3 times as jesus said he would do. Later he was instrumental in 3000 people coming to know the Lord. And when Peter asked Jesus what he was supposed to do Jesus did not tell him to believe or preach or any other woo stuff, Jesus said "Feed my people."
Phat writes: You seem to think that the message is simply one of trying to do ones best with no help from God. My point is that a transformed life is never achieved through works. The only thing one gets is a satiated conscience. So many errors. First is there any evidence of a transformed life? Jesus says repeatedly by word and by acts that we are to do; to heal the sick, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, shelter the homeless, teach the children, comfort the sorrowful. I know you know that since I have gone over those passages verse by verse with you many times. That is what Jesus taught instead of what Paul and Peter and Luke and John tried to market. And it is not about what you get, it is about what you give, what you return to others.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Im going to investigate whether there is any real evidence that Jesus had a different message than the fab four. The dispensationalists have ready explanations. The message did change---we see that. There is no evidence that the message was being sold rather than told, however.
That is what Jesus taught instead of what Paul and Peter and Luke and John tried to market. First is there any evidence of a transformed life? I would argue that there is evidence in most cases. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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