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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 76 of 2887 (768588)
09-12-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:37 AM


All the oil, and natural gas in the earth began to exist.
So, you don't think there are processes that formed fossil fuels? You think that they just appeared in their modern position?
ETA: All of it? At once?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:37 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 77 of 2887 (768590)
09-12-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:41 AM


Hi Dr,
Dr writes:
None of your speculation explains why there's all this evidence for evolution lying around. You want another run at that?
What speculation.
I used all your your evidence for evolution.
Are you saying they are all wrong.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:41 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:55 AM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 78 of 2887 (768591)
09-12-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:49 AM


I am a Creationist. You are a Creationist unless you believe the Universe has always existed.
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:49 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:46 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 2887 (768592)
09-12-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:54 AM


What speculation.
You know, the stuff you made up?
I used all your your evidence for evolution.
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:54 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 80 of 2887 (768594)
09-12-2015 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:41 AM


I have the same fossil record that you do. I just read it differently than you do.
In that you ignore it and I don't. This is different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:41 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:13 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 81 of 2887 (768598)
09-12-2015 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by edge
09-12-2015 11:45 AM


Hi edge,
edge writes:
I'm sorry, but 'began to exist' isn't much of an explanation...
Are you telling me you do not believe that the universe began to exist?
Are you telling me you do not believe that the earth began to exist?
Are you telling me you do not believe that life began to exist?
If you do not believe they began to exist, do you believe they have always existed?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 11:45 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 12:16 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 82 of 2887 (768600)
09-12-2015 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:56 AM


Hi Dr,
Dr writes:
In that you ignore it and I don't. This is different.
Where have I ignored it?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:56 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 12:21 PM ICANT has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 83 of 2887 (768601)
09-12-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICANT
09-12-2015 12:11 PM


Are you telling me you do not believe that the universe began to exist?
Are you telling me that 'began to exist' is the same as 'intelligently created?
Are you telling me you do not believe that the earth began to exist?
Are you telling me that your little semantic games are an argument for YECism?
Are you telling me you do not believe that life began to exist?
Are you telling me that the beginning of life is definitive argument in the evolution/creationism discussion?
If you do not believe they began to exist, do you believe they have always existed?
Of course not. Are you saying that make me a creationist in the sense that we discuss in this forum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:11 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2017 3:11 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 84 of 2887 (768603)
09-12-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
09-12-2015 12:13 PM


Where have I ignored it?
Well, you leave out a few facts.
The fossil record is not just a collection of fossils. You are talking 18th century reasoning here. We know a little bit more than that nowadays.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 1:11 PM edge has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 85 of 2887 (768605)
09-12-2015 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:55 AM


Hi Dr,
Dr writes:
You know, the stuff you made up?
Since you like one liners lets try one thing at a time.
ICANT writes:
The heavens began to exist.
Heavens is the universe.
So did the universe have an instant in which the universe had a beginning to exist.
If the universe did not have an instant in which it had a beginning to exist, has it always existed?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:55 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 12:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 86 of 2887 (768606)
09-12-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ICANT
09-12-2015 12:30 PM


What could that conceivably have to do with fossils?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 1:08 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 87 of 2887 (768611)
09-12-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:54 AM


Hi Dr,
Dr writes:
I am a Creationist. You are a Creationist unless you believe the Universe has always existed.
No.
No What?
Are you saying the universe does not exist? I don't think so.
The universe does exist.
That requires the universe had a beginning to exist as Stephen Hawking said.
If it had a beginning to exist that requires it be created by some means. There are several methods that have been proposed to accomplish that beginning to exist.
You may believe it was created by Hawking's instanton. Which would require existence for the instanton to exist or appear in.
You may believe it was created by two branes banging together. But then you have a problem of existing existence in which the universe began to exist.
If it was not created, how did the universe begin to exist?
If you got another explanation I would like to hear it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:54 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by JonF, posted 09-13-2015 9:15 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 88 of 2887 (768614)
09-12-2015 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:37 AM


ICANT writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
Faith the evidence gathered from all over the earth for the last 200 years by tens of thousands of geologists and geology students, plus, PLUS, the paleontologists, the oceanographers, the geographers, the volcanologists, the chemists, the physicists and astrophysicists, PLUS, all of the biological fields, PLUS, a bunch more groups of specialists that have all contributed to the knowledge of the history of the earth, all that evidence, EVERY SINGLE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE, supports an old earth and a branching pattern of life that is inter-related and evolving.
Nothing refutes it.
Let me give it a go.
There was an extended light period that ended at Genesis 1:2 with darkness.
There is no way anyone can determine the duration of this light period.
This is a science thread. What you think Genesis says is not relevant to this discussion.
ICANT writes:
During this light period in which the earth began to exist and had no oceans. The following things took place.
The heavens began to exist.
The earth began to exist.
All the oil, and natural gas in the earth began to exist.
Mankind began to exist.
Trees and vegetation began to exist.
All kinds of creatures began to exist
None of this has anything to do with science or what we have learned from studying the fossils.
ICANT writes:
Evidence:
"The universe has not always existed". Steven Hawkings.
Where and when did Stephen Hawking say that? And, so what?
How is what Hawking said evidence that refutes, the scientific discoveries of millions of scientists over the last 2oo years?
ICANT writes:
Fossils in and on mountains require them to have been covered with water.
No, they don't. We know that fossils of marine organisms that are found in mountains were deposited in oceans as sedimentary layers and millions of years later those layers were thrust up by plate tectonics to become mountains.
ICANT writes:
The fossils that has been presented in this and many other threads on this site. Prove that there has been many creatures who have began to exist and then ceased to exist.
Yes, we know that sometimes when organisms die, sometimes they become fossils. We also know that many of the fossils that have been discovered are from species that are now extinct.
In what way do you think this refutes the conclusions of science that the earth is very old, that the diversity of life is the product of evolution, and that the fossils support these conclusions?
ICANT writes:
The sudden appearances of specific fossils in the fossil record.
In what way do you think this refutes the conclusions of science that the earth is very old, that the diversity of life is the product of evolution, and that the fossils support these conclusions?
What specific fossils are you talking about?
ICANT writes:
The fact that no one knows how life on earth began to exist.
The fact that no one knows how the universe began to exist.
How does what we don't know refute what we do know? Are you suggesting that if we don't know everything, we don't know anything?
We know a lot about life from the past as well as the present.
We know a lot about the Universe, especially the past since it is huge and what we see is limited by the speed of light.
ICANT, like it or not, humans are curious and we invented a self-correcting methodology of learning about the past of our planet, and life, as well as the Universe. We will continue to observe and experiment and test our understanding and conclusions.
The bible and religion are not contributing much, if anything, to that understanding and those conclusions

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:37 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 2:21 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 89 of 2887 (768618)
09-12-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 12:32 PM


Hi Dr,
Dr writes:
What could that conceivably have to do with fossils?
We have to have a universe because No universe, no fossils.
No earth, no fossils.
Mankind beginning to exist gives reason for human remains to be found.
All kinds of creatures beginning to exist gives you all the fossils you have existing in the museum's today.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 12:32 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 1:12 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 101 by JonF, posted 09-13-2015 9:17 AM ICANT has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 90 of 2887 (768619)
09-12-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:41 AM


Sudden independent creation vs biogeography
I have the same fossil record that you do. ...
We have facts, that's what the fossils are, that is what the elements that provide the dating data have. These are not interpretations or assumptions, they are repeatably observable empirical evidence.
... I just read it differently than you do.
No, you create a totally post hoc tortuous jamming of what you believe to fit around the facts. The same approach would apply if the evidence did not support evolution, in fact it would apply to any kind of evidence no matter what it was. Thus it does not explain the evidence.
The question for you, the one you have not addressed, is why does the evidence fit the expected patterns of evolution completely without exception, from species to species and from era to era, ... the complete geological, geographical and biological pattern?
When you ask:
Message 67: How does a bunch of pictures lined up in a row which are said to be millions of years apart ...
Is not it just just as plausible that they were created as they are found in different parts of eternity?
If sudden independent creation were the cause, then why are all the fossils located in time and space within walking distance of each other, instead of on the other side of the world?
Eg - why are the various ancient hominid fossils found not just in Africa, but a specific area of Africa -- why not some in Asia and some in Australia and some in the Americas?
Sudden independent creation, as a scientific hypothesis, should predict no relation in location or time for similar appearing fossils, because it has no mechanism to cause such a relationship. That is the one "test" that would show that it was valid in place of evolution, and that the evidence (epic) fails to fall in line with that prediction, should be taken as evidence that the hypothesis is false. IFF you want to approach things scientifically instead of by hand waving ...
Or, as Dr A says, the evidence is an elaborate hoax created specifically to fool people into thinking a falsehood. God as Loki.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

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