Six possible things for creationists to disbelieve before breakfast

400,000-year-old human DNA adds new tangle to our origin storyThe title is a play on words* to introduce a serious subject.

The oldest human DNA ever recovered is throwing scientists for a loop: The 400,000-year-old genetic material comes from bones that have been linked to Neanderthals in Spain but its signature is most similar to that of a different ancient human population from Siberia, known as the Denisovans.

​

​

Previous analysis of bones from the cave had led researchers to assume that the Sima de los Huesos people were closely related to Neanderthals on the basis of their skeletal features. But the mitochondrial DNA was far more similar to that of the Denisovans, an early human population that was thought to have split off from Neanderthals around 640,000 years ago. The first Denisovan specimens were identified in 2010, based on an analysis of 30,000-year-old bones excavated in Siberia.

This chart shows the relationships of the various species based on complete or nearly complete mitochondrial genomes. Incidentally, this article is very characteristic of what paleoanthropologists, molecular biologists and related researchers are learning nowadays.Scientists look at this and say, "Hmmmm. That's interesting. Wonder what that means. Let's see if we can figure it out."Creationists more likely will look at this same information and say, "That's not possible because of..."I look at this thread as a way to explore both the new data and its implications, and reasons creationists will present for dismissing it.* "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." The Queen, in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There (1871). (Very similar to his Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.)Edited by Coyote, : No reason given.

Edited.

This study presents an important discovery: the picture of hominin evolution is far more complex that we realized.In the past few years, two important finds have been attributed to a new species based on genetic studies of "fossils." The Denisovans have been found to be genetically distinct, based on mtDNAs, from both Neanderthals and modern humans.Dates for the original finds from Siberia are around 41,000 years ago. The new find from Spain dates to more like 400,000 years ago. In a post above I included a chart showing tentative mtDNA groupings of these finds along with Neanderthal and modern humans.I consider these findings important as they give us evidence of a third early critter running around at the same time as humans and Neanderthals. But they also bring up far more questions than they answer. And that's the way science works--folks will now be out using these new techniques to 1) see if they can confirm the findings, and 2) see what else they can discover about hominim evolution during the past 500,000 years.But we've yet to hear from any creationists on this new discovery.

That is a branching diagram, going from oldest on the left.Moving from top to bottom, we have the the Denisovans and Neanderthals, then later the out-of-Africa movement of modern humans, all the way down to the most recent mitochondrial groups, at the bottom, which represent Native Americans.The interesting things are that 1) the new Spanish find occurs so early on this graph, 2) it is more closely related to the Denisovans than with Neanderthal; and, 3) it is found on the opposite side of the continent from the Denisovans and several hundred thousand years earlier.Makes one want to go, "Hmmmmm."

My physical anthropology professor in grad school was in favor of that as well.I still think he was right.

This site has been given a pretty old date from long before the mtDNA was sequenced. The presence of the particular fossils alone suggests an older date.I'm not sure of the dating methods used as the articles don't say much, but apparently the site has been worked since 1983 and the mtDNA was just sequenced recently.

The populations do seem to have been small.But I think we still have a lot to learn about Neanderthal. The DNA sequencing that they're now doing is telling us a lot, and there will be more to come!

They reached Spain, Portugal, and Italy.But here is an interesting one for you:http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...a-spain-denisovan-cave

Here is another interesting read:Frontiers of Zoology: Neanderthal Family Tree Reflects Geography

I think we still have a lot to learn about those guys.And now that they are getting DNA from the bones, I think that'll be a big help.

As Percy notes, ages up to about 50,000 years are measured by radiocarbon dating.Older ages are measured or estimated based on a variety of other techniques, some of which are radiometric.Do you have some problem with ages of that magnitude?