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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2367 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 331 of 1444 (765680)
08-04-2015 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
08-04-2015 7:49 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Jar manages to get his own peculiar meanings out of the Bible, which he aggressively insists are THE only meanings possible
Nice projection there Faith, in 4K definition no less!
I'm can't speak for Jar but from what I read he mostly insist on the basic message of Jesus without the extra stuff added and used only for marketing like miracles and all the supernatural stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 08-04-2015 7:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 332 of 1444 (765683)
08-04-2015 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by GDR
08-03-2015 9:22 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
GDR writes:
If Jesus isn't resurrected then the whole Christian faith is meaningless.
And that is exactly what makes being a good person from the core so special.
If the whole Christian faith is meaningless, and people continue to feed the poor, and help the sick and be good people...
...it becomes more powerful.
It becomes more honorable.
It becomes more important.
Not less.
Relying on anything other than your own personal decision in order to be a good person only serves to cheapen what it is to be a good person. You are no longer trying to be a good person... you're trying to make a trade. Whether it's for everlasting life, or prestige with some God, or even just a sense of duty to an icon... if it's not from you it's simply a trade. If you're concerned about anything external (like Christianity being true or religion being meaningful...) then it's not from you.
The power from making a decision for no reason is that "nothingness" is infinite and all encompassing.
There really are no rules.
There is no reason to be good.
The choice is yours. Help make it better, help make it worse, or don't care.
Only one of those makes a life worth living.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 9:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 333 of 1444 (765684)
08-04-2015 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by GDR
08-03-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
GDR writes:
Sure, but those that are could hold the same beliefs that you do. Muslims view Jesus as a prophet and Gandhi says that he admired the teachings of Jesus. That doesn't make them Christians.
Sure, but all of mankind has been called by Jesus to follow His message of loving your neighbour which is a teaching common to virtually all religions and cultures to one degree or another. That doesn't make everyone a Christian.
But I have never claimed that they were Christians so what is your point?
GDR writes:
jar writes:
Most of the other things as you point out were creations of those who were creating and marketing a new product; Christianity.
Exactly my point. You have chosen to believe that the account of the resurrection specifically, but also that other aspects of the actions and teachings of Jesus were fabrications. It is those things that you don't believe that differentiate Christianity from other religions.
Again, unless you can provide specifics I cannot even fathom what point you are trying to make. There is a whole thread where I asked Christians "What is Christianity" and beyond membership in a Chapter that identifies itself as part of Club Christian or just self identification as a Christian, there were no universal features unique to Christianity.
GDR writes:
If Jesus did make those claims and those things aren't true then Jesus was, as I said, delusional and why would anyone want to follow the teachings of one who was delusional? If the stories told by the Gospel writers, and Paul for that matter, were fabrications then why bother with Christianity or the church? Better to follow Gandhi or Buddha. Also, if they were fabrications then why believe anything they said about what Jesus said and did?
People follow folk who are delusional all the time.
But there are good reasons as well. I look at the teachings of Jesus that relate to how one lives his life and his relationship with others and the universe and they seem a good path to follow. I would likely feel the same if I had been raised in a Jewish or Taoist or Atheist or Agnostic or Muslim or Buddhist family.
Even if everything said about Jesus was a fabrication, those lessons have worth and value.
But I was raised in a Christian family, educated in a Christian school and joined a Chapter of Club Christian so I am a Christian.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 12:16 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 334 of 1444 (765685)
08-04-2015 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by GDR
08-03-2015 9:38 PM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
GDR writes:
Jar's view is, (although he doesn't phrase it this way), is simply that you do your best to be good and that is what makes you right with God.
Not true as usual.
Stop trying to make my beliefs fit on a bumper sticker.
It really is that simple.
I have no idea of what would make me right with God but the Bible and the words attributed to Jesus sure in hell tell us what would get us on God's wrong side.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 9:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by GDR, posted 01-09-2019 8:39 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 335 of 1444 (765689)
08-04-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by GDR
08-02-2015 9:31 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
GDR writes:
If Jesus was not resurrected then he was not only mistaken about a great deal but was highly delusional. Why would you want to follow a man like that?
Because the message is more important than the messenger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by GDR, posted 08-02-2015 9:31 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 336 of 1444 (765690)
08-04-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by GDR
08-03-2015 9:22 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
GDR writes:
If Jesus isn't resurrected then the whole Christian faith is meaningless.
Only the meaningless part that you have tacked on is meaningless. The message still has meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 9:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 337 of 1444 (765692)
08-04-2015 12:42 PM


I get what GDR is saying. So I will chime in.
Jesus is one with the father same substance.
Jesus is God.
These are basic tenants of the faith for being a Christian.
Catholics take it one step further and believe that the Eucharist and wine are actually the flesh and blood of Jesus once concentrated by the priest through transubstantiation.
People are free to believe or disbelieve what they may but saying you are a Christians pretty much means you at a minimum believe the most basic tenant of that faith.
I think that is all GDR was trying to illustrate.
Is it hocus pocus, hogwash, woo? A bunch of mystic superstitions held over from the first century? Perhaps, but a great many people believed it and died at the hands of the Romans for it.
A great many more still believe it for whatever their reasons.
If you are a Scientologist you believe in Xemu. If you are a Mormon you believe that Joseph Smith received addendum to the Bible in 1827 from angels. If you are a Muslim you believe Mohammad got the good word from the angel Gabriel in the 600's.
And yes if you are a Christian you believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God, was crucified by the Romans and came back to life.
Or I could be wrong, but I get what GDR is saying anyhow.
My dos centavos.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 338 of 1444 (766211)
08-14-2015 4:07 PM


Predestination, omiscience, and free will video series.
For those of you with an academic interest in the problems with free will and predestination, foreknowledge, and determinism, there is an excellent video lecture series covering this topic.
The lecture series feature Dr. Shaun Nichols of the University of Arizona, and he reviews the history of philosophical thought on these topics including discussing how various thinkers resolve the apparent and real conflicts between free will and the other concepts. He does a good job at pointing on the strengths and weaknesses of each argument. At times he has to discuss religion and science, and manages not to misrepresent either topic too badly.
The Great Courses
Unfortunately the series of 24 lectures is relatively expensive. $130 for audio download and $250 for video from TTC. But it may be found for free in some of the usual places for that kind of thing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 339 of 1444 (766218)
08-14-2015 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by 1.61803
08-04-2015 12:42 PM


Flickering Christians?
~1.62 writes:
If you are a Scientologist you believe in Xemu. If you are a Mormon you believe that Joseph Smith received addendum to the Bible in 1827 from angels. If you are a Muslim you believe Mohammad got the good word from the angel Gabriel in the 600's.
And yes if you are a Christian you believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God, was crucified by the Romans and came back to life.
That sounds reasonable until you start imagining how it works in the day-to-day practice of religion and in the personal histories of the religious.
If we accept that faith in the divinity of Christ and his rising from the dead is the sine qua non of Christian identity, then what are we to do with the losses and lapses of faith reported by ordinary Christians as well as its saints and church fathers?
Is your Christian identity thick as a brick on Sunday, in the bosom of your congregation, serene and unchallenged because you are young and unsorrowed--and then it thins and wavers because someone raped and murdered the kid next door, and belief in a personal, loving God seems impossible for a while? Poof, you're not a Christian?
When someone experiences a crisis or series of crises of faith, does their Christian identity blink on-and-off like fireflies? I don't think so. Would you look at the bio of a famous Christian mystic, and say, "Look there, that patch where he had a dark night of the soul--definitely not a Christian then."? Clearly not.
So, sure, being a Christian involves your beliefs about Christ and his precepts, but just as surely there can be no single doctrinal acid test. Perhaps the will or desire to believe could be described as necessary. The alienated mystic has that, and continues to pray and meditate, as do many Christians who lose their faith but continue as members of a congregation and as celebrants of its creed and worship.
I think the question of who is a Christian has much to do with doctrinal zealotry and the desire to tidy up a messy human experience. If doubts about Christ's story disqualify one as a Christian, what shall we do with Christ? He had his own doubts.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by 1.61803, posted 08-04-2015 12:42 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 2:09 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 340 of 1444 (770066)
09-29-2015 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Omnivorous
08-14-2015 6:17 PM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Omni writes:
If we accept that faith in the divinity of Christ and his rising from the dead is the sine qua non of Christian identity, then what are we to do with the losses and lapses of faith reported by ordinary Christians as well as its saints and church fathers?
Questioning and even doubting ones faith is a normal human reaction. I tend to believe that of one actually lost their faith they never had it to begin with. It takes works to maintain faith, but the Holy Spirit will support your efforts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Omnivorous, posted 08-14-2015 6:17 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2015 8:39 AM Phat has replied
 Message 346 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2015 3:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 364 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-01-2015 2:47 AM Phat has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 341 of 1444 (770071)
09-29-2015 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Phat
09-29-2015 2:09 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that of one actually lost their faith they never had it to begin with.
Tidy.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 2:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 10:38 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 342 of 1444 (770085)
09-29-2015 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Omnivorous
09-29-2015 8:39 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Look at it this way, Omni. Say I had never met my Grandfather.. I had heard stories and known everything to know about him that I could know...except his very character and presence. It would be easy to say that I never really knew him.
Contrast this scenario with one where I actually had an occasion and opportunity to meet him. We spent time together and I soaked in his character.
Given that the second scenario occurred, could I ever then say that I never really knew him?
Get the analogy? Christians who have actually had a time when they felt that they met Jesus would never really walk away from the faith no matter how difficult the times must be. Many examples can be given.
It has been my observation that--at least around here--people allow logic and evidence to trump their emotional and soulful encounters with the risen Christ. or perhaps they never had a soulful encounter.
jar would ask how i knew I had met Jesus. All I can say is that the word "knew" in this context is the same Biblical definition for an intimate encounter.
Perhaps the will or desire to believe could be described as necessary.
True. If I had met a Grandfather who abused me, it would be easier to deny he ever existed.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2015 8:39 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Stile, posted 09-29-2015 12:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 344 by ringo, posted 09-29-2015 1:10 PM Phat has replied
 Message 345 by jar, posted 09-29-2015 1:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 347 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2015 4:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 343 of 1444 (770096)
09-29-2015 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
09-29-2015 10:38 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
Christians who have actually had a time when they felt that they met Jesus would never really walk away from the faith no matter how difficult the times must be.
...
It has been my observation that--at least around here--people allow logic and evidence to trump their emotional and soulful encounters with the risen Christ. or perhaps they never had a soulful encounter.
You seem to claim a whole lot of personal details of many people who are not you.
What makes you so sure that you're able to correctly deduce what *exactly* is going on in other people's minds?
You seem to want to deny other people that they can have experiences that you cannot explain.
However, at the same time, you seem to want to convince everyone that your experience-that-no-one-understands is absolute truth.
I don't think you know any of what you say you know at all.
I think you simply claim to know such things because they give you excuses to ignore the facts you find uncomfortable to consider.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 344 of 1444 (770098)
09-29-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
09-29-2015 10:38 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
If I had met a Grandfather who abused me, it would be easier to deny he ever existed.
If your grandfather abused you, it would not be reasonable to deny that he ever existed. It WOULD be reasonable to reject him.
Your analogy is flawed. We all know that our grandfathers existed, whether they were good or bad. We do NOT know whether or not God exists. It is reasonable to deny his existence, given the total lack of evidence that he does exist. Also, given the way he is described by his devotees, it is reasonable to reject him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 10:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 4:17 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 345 of 1444 (770100)
09-29-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
09-29-2015 10:38 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
jar would ask how i knew I had met Jesus. All I can say is that the word "knew" in this context is the same Biblical definition for an intimate encounter.
I would tend to agree that many if not most Christians, particularly "Biblical" and "Evangelical" Christians do fuck both God and Jesus.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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