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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thank you for the compliment. Except for the BS part of course.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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The whole question of how His omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence affect our free will is a clumsy (and in a certain sense also presumptuous) human way of thinking. God's foreknowledge doesn't affect our free will, and our asking the question makes the mistake of putting God on our level, but He doesn't exist on our level. Stated with a little more mysticism than I would use, but I agree with you that the way many people talk about omniscience borders on being silly and in fact limiting. Much of the discussion here is of the type 'Can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it' that comes from looking similarly silly about the meaning of omnipotence. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
^^^ it's the same with all these God discussions - they're all silly 'angels on pinhead' logic that can only resolve to 'well this is what I made up and now believe'. Pointless.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Belief is not always pointless. You are a perfect reason why I believe free will trumps omniscience. It would not be logical for God to create you foreknowing you to not believe. God loves Tangle as much as he loves Mother Theresa.
It will be a grand testimony when the final chapters of your life have been written.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
NoNukes writes: The creation of the possibility of evil was a consequence of allowing free will. The creation of a universe that includes the possibility of free will inevitably involves good and bad events. NoNukes writes: Good point. Is it God's fault that our sun is only going to last a few billion years? Ringo seems to think that anytime anyone (human or Deity) can do good they should do good. But the sun analogy brings up the point...is it Gods responsibility to make sure every created thing lives forever?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
.. if I'm not making the choice, who is? jar writes: Did it ever occur to you that "the inevitable" is doing you? You once asked me to explain communion. Communion is humans freely choosing their destiny in isolated moments of time and being accepted by GOD eternally. Perhaps the reason we are accepted is because our free choice is what is best for everyone concerned. You claim you are making a choice but since the outcome is known before you make it you are not making the choice, simply doin' the inevitable. Another way to explain this. Say that all knowledge is the result of choices in time. We make choices moment by moment throughout time. At any given moment in time we are either in communion or out of communion. You may argue that simply by knowing the moment makes the Creator responsible and potentially evil. I would argue that the decision of each moment is ours.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Did it ever occur to you that "the inevitable" is doing you? Of course not. That does not even have any meaning.
Phat writes: You once asked me to explain communion. Communion is humans freely choosing their destiny in isolated moments of time and being accepted by GOD eternally. And more word salad.
Phat writes: At any given moment in time we are either in communion or out of communion. You may argue that simply by knowing the moment makes the Creator responsible and potentially evil. I would argue that the decision of each moment is ours. Kale salad likely.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Phat writes: You are a perfect reason why I believe free will trumps omniscience. It would not be logical for God to create you foreknowing you to not believe. God loves Tangle as much as he loves Mother Theresa. And this is a pefect example of making something up and then believing it because it fits a need. It's a self-deluding spiral. God does not love me or you and especially not Mother Teresa. If he exists at all, he shows no interest in any of us - that much is at least evidenced.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Malachi 3:6: ...I am the LORD; I change not... Exodus 32:14: So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There are no contradictions in God's word.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
There are no contradictions in God's word. But there's plenty of 'em in the Bible.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But there's plenty of 'em in the Bible. Nope. Unbelievers are hopelessly confused about it, that's all, because you refuse to obey the very first requirement of understanding it.
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Bliyaal Member (Idle past 2617 days) Posts: 171 From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada Joined:
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because you refuse to obey the very first requirement of understanding it In your worldview, the first requirement would be throwing your brain out of the window. There are contradictions in the multiples versions of the Bible. Think about it, blame it on the various people who wrote the texts if you want but you can't deny reality.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17907 Joined: Member Rating: 7.2
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quote: Which is, apparently: "Ignore what the stupid Bible says and worship Faith's idols instead."
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ringo Member (Idle past 660 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Have you heard of Jesus at all?
Ringo seems to think that anytime anyone (human or Deity) can do good they should do good.
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