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Author Topic:   Senate grants Obama big win with fast track trade authority
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 16 of 29 (763320)
07-23-2015 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by dronestar
07-23-2015 3:43 PM


Re: Trans-Pacific Partnership: fascism rears it's ugly head
dronestar writes:
. . . as for the orangutans . . . you'd be surprised, . . . they're quite tasty.
Well, they definitely have better taste than Trump.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1510 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 17 of 29 (763330)
07-23-2015 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by dronestar
07-23-2015 3:08 PM


Re: Trans-Pacific Partnership: fascism rears it's ugly head
RAZD cheered your post? Really?
Let's see, for the past couple of decades (centuries?), the voters have been using this "lesser-evil" strategy. The democrat voters would hold their noses while "carefully" voting for Obama over the more evil John McCain. And the republican voters would hold their noses while "carefully" voting for Bush Jr. over the more evil John Kerry.
With these recent examples in mind, it is your opinion that the following presidential candidates are the positive shift we voters have been "carefully" cultivating?:
It is part of the shift - as the republicans slide further to the reactionary right, the dems slide to the right with candidates (Hillary) that can appeal to disaffected republicans (yes there are some, increasingly vocal about it too) ... and that leaves room to the left for new progressive candidates. This is the reason that Bernie Sanders is doing so well (are you channeling the main-stream-media in ignoring him?).
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by dronestar, posted 07-23-2015 3:08 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by dronestar, posted 08-04-2015 4:57 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 29 (763333)
07-23-2015 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
07-23-2015 5:07 PM


Re: Trans-Pacific Partnership: fascism rears it's ugly head
No room left for anybody not well funded.
Until that fact is changed, American politicians will always answer to the wealthy first and to their constituents second.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 07-23-2015 5:07 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2015 7:51 PM Jon has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 29 (763346)
07-23-2015 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
07-23-2015 5:19 PM


Re: Trans-Pacific Partnership: fascism rears it's ugly head
No room left for anybody not well funded.
Until that fact is changed, American politicians will always answer to the wealthy first and to their constituents second.
Might as well not even vote...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 5:19 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 07-23-2015 9:42 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 688 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 20 of 29 (763351)
07-23-2015 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dronestar
06-24-2015 5:07 PM


It is import duties imposed by third world countries that cause american goods to be expensive. Believe me, from personal experience, poor people from other countries wish they could buy american goods. It is the import duty that causes most of the expense. If this trade deal eliminates some of these duties, it is a very good deal. Is that still fascism? I will never understand some peoples use a term I would more properly apply to people like Putin.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2015 9:50 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 29 (763362)
07-23-2015 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2015 7:51 PM


Re: Trans-Pacific Partnership: fascism rears it's ugly head
Indeed. In The Price of Civilization (thread), Jeffrey Sachs describes the disconnect between popular opinion regarding health care reform and what we got with the ACA. Having explained Obama's loyalty to the insurance lobbies, he goes on to say:
quote:
Jeffrey Sachs in The Price of Civilization (2011):
The entire health care debate then took on a surreal air for the next fifteen months. Obama could not table a plan because the outlines of the implicit agreement with industry ran counter to the views of much of his own party, and indeed a majority of the public at large. During 2009, the public repeatedly indicated in opinion surveys that it backed the option of a government-run plan to compete with private plans. According to CBS/New York Times polls, the margin was 66 percent to 27 percent in favor of the public option in June—July 2009; in a Pew survey, it was 52 percent to 37 percent. (p. 122)

Love your enemies!

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 22 of 29 (763363)
07-23-2015 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by foreveryoung
07-23-2015 8:16 PM


It is import duties imposed by third world countries that cause american goods to be expensive. Believe me, from personal experience, poor people from other countries wish they could buy american goods.
What stuff do we make that poor people cannot purchase just as cheaply from one or more Asian companies? John Deere Tractors?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 8:16 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 10:42 PM NoNukes has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 688 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 23 of 29 (763367)
07-23-2015 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by NoNukes
07-23-2015 9:50 PM


The country I visited had all imported goods priced extremely high. You cannot purchase a battery powered box fan for less than $240 USD there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2015 9:50 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2015 11:13 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 29 (763368)
07-23-2015 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by foreveryoung
07-23-2015 10:42 PM


The country I visited had all imported goods priced extremely high. You cannot purchase a battery powered box fan for less than $240 USD there.
That's exactly the kind of stuff that China makes more cheaply that we do.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 10:42 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 11:56 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 26 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 11:57 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 688 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 25 of 29 (763369)
07-23-2015 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
07-23-2015 11:13 PM


.....
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 688 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 26 of 29 (763370)
07-23-2015 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
07-23-2015 11:13 PM


So the China fan is sold for $240 and the American fan is sold for $250 let's say in that country. The american fan automatically becomes cheaper than the China fan when you remove import duties on certain american goods in exchange for similar concessions on the American side for the raw materials this country produces. It would probably hurt the mining industry in america but it would lower the price of all goods produced from these raw materials. I cannot see what harm free trade does except harm non efficient industries.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 29 (763380)
07-24-2015 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by foreveryoung
07-23-2015 11:57 PM


I cannot see what harm free trade does except harm non efficient industries.
If by 'efficiency' you mean most exploitable, then I agree.

Love your enemies!

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 Message 26 by foreveryoung, posted 07-23-2015 11:57 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 28 of 29 (765537)
07-30-2015 10:24 PM


Free Trade: Good or Bad
In What Went Wrong? (the book I am still reading that continues to give me things to think about), George Tyler discusses the impact of globalization on the economies of northern Europe and Australia (what he calls the 'family capitalism' countries) and America (home of Reaganomics).
He shows that globalization can actually benefit an economy, as it did Europe, or hurt an economy, as it did America, depending on the steps taken to either profit or fail.
If an economy focuses in training workers and providing new skills, it can maintain good levels of employment with the added bonus of the jobs being better. If an economy does not prioritize these things, it will see jobs disappear and workers sit idle.
While the American system has taken the latter path, the northern European countries have taken the former. The ratio of skilled jobs to unskilled jobs in these economies has increased faster than in the U.S. (where there has been no real difference between the increase in skilled vs. unskilled jobs). (The exact figures are in the book, which is at work; I will add them to the post sometime this weekend.)
[ABE]The figures, as I promised: Starting with 1980 values as 100%, the 'Index of skilled labor employment' increased to 125% in the U.S. and 157% in Europe. Again, starting with 1980 values at 100%, the 'Index of unskilled employment' increased in the U.S. to 121% (almost the same increase as skilled jobs) but decreased in Europe to 86%. (pp. 320—321). While the U.S. was treating jobs as jobs and sat around losing them to foreign labor markets, Europe was taking advantage of globalization's displacement of unskilled workers by training them to meet the demands of skilled positions.[/ABE]
What it amounts to is some economies choosing to take advantage of globalization as an opportunity to pass off low-skilled, less-desirable jobs to others and utilize the freed labor force for more desirable skilled work (= more profitable).
While America continues on its path of Reaganomics, globalization will offer it nothing but more misery. But if American's choose family and societal welfare over corporate welfare and the welfare of the few, the world of globalization could be an amazing opportunity for prosperity and the ushering in of another golden age of American economic dominance and leadership.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1425
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 29 of 29 (765702)
08-04-2015 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
07-23-2015 5:07 PM


Re: Trans-Pacific Partnership: fascism rears it's ugly head
RAZD writes:
It is part of the shift - as the republicans slide further to the reactionary right, the dems slide to the right with candidates (Hillary) that can appeal to disaffected republicans (yes there are some, increasingly vocal about it too) ... and that leaves room to the left for new progressive candidates.
RAZD, this supposed "shift" you write of has been happening for decades. Howard, Dean, Nador, Kucinich, Stein, and now latest leftist, . . . Sanders. But there's no discernable (discernible?) nation-wide shift over time, these leftist candidates have been getting the same anemic amount of voters as ever. They quickly are marginalized by the corporate media, then the few voters who actually bother to vote, go and elect a corporatist/fascist/war-monger. As I wrote before, this on-going strategy of "voting for the lesser evil" is not having any positive/progressive effect (where's my single payer health insurance?).
And secondly, even if you could show your strategy was working on a glacially-slow time scale, . . . humanity doesn't have the time. Global warming, fresh water depletion, nuclear weapon proliferation-escalation/mass small-weapons sales, decreasing rights/liberties, third world/poverty escalation, fanatical religious/science-ignorance escalation, increasing military budget, blah blah blah. Just when exactly is this positive shift gonna happen? After the cockroaches become the sole inhabitants of the world?
RAZD writes:
This is the reason that Bernie Sanders is doing so well (are you channeling the main-stream-media in ignoring him?).
Huh? Ignoring?
Try actually reading my post Message 10 of 28 (762766) in this thread.
If you think I am being overly cynical, then I implore you to reply AFTER you watch the republican debates this Thursday. It will be like a clown explosion at the circus, but with more impending doom after-taste.

This message is a reply to:
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