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Author Topic:   What to say if you met God/god/Gods/gods
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 16 of 116 (749795)
02-08-2015 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-06-2015 9:24 AM


Assuming I recognized him, I guess I'd open with "hello, God".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2015 9:24 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 17 of 116 (749797)
02-08-2015 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
02-07-2015 5:22 PM


Predictable responses.
Complaining that atheists are predictable is one of the top 523 dumbest things theists do. Yes, obviously they're predictable, that's because they're right. If you went around saying that two twos are five, it's highly predictable that you'd hear the word "four" a lot.
If what I've said is true so that there are practical causes for suffering and also practical solutions, you'd think a pragmatic rational position would be concerned with that side of things.
Quite so. For example, there are practical causes for diseases, such as bacteria and viruses, practically transmitted by things such as poor sanitation and contaminated water, and addressable by practical solutions such as antibiotics, vaccines, and improved sanitation. People with a pragmatic rational position are concerned with that side of things.
Then there are the impractical irrational solutions, such as prayer, burning witches, animal sacrifice, and blaming the nearest Jew. We tried all that, Faith, it didn't work.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 62 of 116 (763372)
07-24-2015 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by foreveryoung
07-23-2015 8:06 PM


If God does something, he would have to reveal himself.
Well according to the Bible this is not something God is shy about doing. A plague of frogs here, a rain of blood there, thundering from mountain tops, going about as a column of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night. It's true that he hasn't done any of that stuff lately, but it's clearly not something he abstains from doing in principle.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 5:46 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 67 of 116 (763391)
07-24-2015 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by foreveryoung
07-24-2015 5:46 AM


The world was a much more superstitious place back then. He also revealed himself to a limited audience. He revealed himself to a world that believed in many gods. His revealing himself was partly to show he was greater than those other gods.
Whereas nowadays he's happy to sit back and let 1.6 billion people give all the credit to Allah?

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 Message 68 by foreveryoung, posted 07-24-2015 10:56 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 81 of 116 (766606)
08-19-2015 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by foreveryoung
07-24-2015 10:56 AM


Nope. You assume too much. He hates it but allows it and does not intervene.
Very well, if you insist, let me rephrase that: God would be unhappy however things turned out, but apparently he is less unhappy at having people worship false gods than he would be at demonstrating his truth in the way that he does continually throughout the Bible.
This world would turn upside done with incontrovertibls evidence of his existence. Mass genocide comes to mind.
Maybe while he was giving incontrovertible evidence of his existence he could also give incontrovertible proof that he disapproves of genocide?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 98 of 116 (800892)
03-01-2017 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by mike the wiz
03-01-2017 5:23 PM


So, the old "mysterious ways" defense.
"I think Hitler is perfect. Now, you may object 'but what about the Holocaust?' But it is only imperfect people like you who think there's something wrong with the Holocaust. If you were perfect like Hitler you'd know that it was an excellent idea."
And so with the sort of intractably circular "reasoning" peddled by Mike you can defend any evil and elevate it as the supreme good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2017 5:23 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2017 6:09 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 102 of 116 (800916)
03-02-2017 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by mike the wiz
03-01-2017 6:09 PM


A simplistic strawman fallacy.
Did you have a reason for writing that bizarre jumble of words?
I don't see how this compares to anything I have said.
I can only give you a valid argument, I cannot give you the wits necessary to understand it.
What is evil? Define evil under atheism.
Hurting people would be a good first approximation.
If the world is an accident, when someone murders you or I, this is the same as two rocks colliding, for two pieces of matter, one striking the other.
Why would you say that? Clearly it is not the same: we can in fact distinguish between the two states.
Who put you as the moraliser, EXCEPT YOU?
Who put God as the moralizer?
1. God is not Hitler.
I never said he was.
(an omniscient and omipotent God can't be compared to Hitler for starters, because what motivates a man does not motivate God.)
Your apologetics for God can, however, be compared to apologetics for Hitler.
2. Evil doesn't exist under atheism.
Wrong.
3. You still use, "evil" and pretend that anyone not of your position is, "evil".
I pretend no such thing.
You can't have your cake and eat it. If evil doesn't exist ...
I'm not the one claiming that evil doesn't exist. You don't get to decide what my philosophy is. I can't have my cake if you eat it. Stop eating my cake.

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 Message 99 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2017 6:09 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 103 of 116 (800917)
03-02-2017 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by mike the wiz
03-01-2017 6:26 PM


In reference to the kind of response to me of this nature; "you approve of evil, God done, evil, answer for it." I can't answer any questions that put atheists as the moral judge over me. As soon as I answer a question like that I DIGNIFY them assuming that position of moralising judge over me and God.
Basically there is an unspoken neurotic request by the atheist that if put into words would look like this; "mike, I am indicting you, now agree I am the moral judge by answering my questions, and my accusations."
It would be a sin for me to HELP YOU with your deception.
That's an interesting excuse for your failure to produce a coherent argument.
You may wish to read the first message I wrote in this thread to better understand the logical predicament you are in as atheists;
Bot Verification
What insane drivel. You seem to be saying that there can be no such thing as right or wrong unless justice will always be done.
Would you also say that there's no such thing as health or sickness unless medicine is always effective? No such thing as fat or thin unless dieting is always successful? No such thing as clever or stupid unless education uniformly makes people smart?
Besides which, I note that your argument is a heresy against Christian doctrine, which maintains that God bestows undeserved grace and redemption on people all of whom would deserve to go to Hell if justice were done. The Christian hope is in an unjust universe that is unjust in their favor. Do you want me to quote St. Paul at you?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix link in quote box. One must go to the raw text, not the truncated display version (OSLT).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2017 6:26 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 03-02-2017 3:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 104 of 116 (800918)
03-02-2017 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by mike the wiz
03-01-2017 5:23 PM


Let's post this again, it would be hard to improve on it.
---
Aztec: You should worship Tezcatlipoca.
Me: Why?
Aztec: Because he's infinitely good, and therefore worthy of worship.
Me: But doesn't he enjoin human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism on his followers?
Aztec: Oh, good, I see you've been reading up on him. What's your point?
Me: Well, isn't that kind of ... bad? And therefore in contradiction to your claim that he's infinitely good?
Aztec: But Tezcatlipoca wants human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism!
Me: That would be kind of my point. It seems to me that if he wants bad things, then (if he exists) he is himself bad.
Aztec: But since Tezcatlipoca wants these things, and since he is infinitely good, they can't possibly be bad things. So your argument fails.
---
Now, if you can see the problem with his reasoning, then please note that it holds up a mirror to yours.
In order for me to judge between various claims about the attributes of an infinitely good being, I have to stand outside the circle of reasoning that begins with the premise that the being in question is infinitely good --- and instead apply my own moral sense, imperfect though it may be, to those claims.
And, standing outside these charmed magical circles of reasoning, I see no reason why I should step inside any one of them. Why should I follow you round and round your magic circle rather than following the priest of Tezcatlipoca? How can I find your reasoning valid without finding his reasoning valid also?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2017 5:23 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 108 of 116 (800967)
03-02-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
03-02-2017 3:39 AM


Re: Unjust Universe+Just God.
Not sure I follow.
Everyone is naturally bad without exception:
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man." (Mark.7:21-23)
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." (Romans 5:12)
This is true in particular of those whom God has chosen to save:
"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Col. 2:13)
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph. 2:1-5)
"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." (Rom. 3:9-12)
"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight." (Col. 1:21 - 22)
The selection of some people for salvation was therefore arbitrary, at God's own good pleasure and not based in any way on choosing the better people over the worse:
"Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began." (2 Tim. 1:9)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Rom. 9:16)
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4-5)
"For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."" (Rom. 9:11-13)
It is Biblical doctrine, then, that all are wicked and deserve punishment, but that some, no less wicked and no more deserving, shall get eternal infinite happiness instead. The Christian religion is, then, based on the hope that in the afterlife justice will not be done to all people --- specifically, that it will not be done to Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 03-02-2017 3:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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