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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
or that God deliberately arranges it (which is even worse for you). Why is that worse for me?
All your methods either assume that the cat will inevitably die Yes, but the issue is whether the death of the cat could be said to be inevitable before God's prediction. You claim that such must be the case. But clearly some of the cases I provided, do not require any such thing. Again, I have yet to see any defense from you that foreknowledge implies that an outcome must have existed at all times. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: If you're trying to deny God's responsibility for an event, having God directly arrange it only makes it more obvious that God IS responsible
quote: Some of them deny the sort of foreknowledge usually attributed to God, yes. So what ? We've already got that far.
quote: I'm not claiming that limited foreknowledge based on arranging particular events or lacking the ability to see the entire future is necessarily a problem. However I have defended my actual claim.As I've already pointed out, genuine foreknowledge of an event has the inevitability of an event as a prerequisite. Omniscience is usually taken to includes certain foreknowledge of the entire future, and therefore the entire future must be fixed from the moment of creation. Got that ?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If you're trying to deny God's responsibility for an event, having God directly arrange it only makes it more obvious that God IS responsible This discussion is hypothetical. I am simply exploring the possibilities of free will existing along side foreknowledge. If there are consequences of that, so be it. The situation still presents an alternative to what you are saying is required.
I'm not claiming that limited foreknowledge based on arranging particular events or lacking the ability to see the entire future is necessarily a problem. I agree that seeing the entire future would eliminate free will. But what I am suggesting is that an unexercised ability to see the entire future does not necessarily do so. The act of exercising the ability may require converting a portion otherwise non-deterministic universe into a deterministic one. For example, an omnipotent being could exert himself to forsee the result of a Shrodinger's cat experiment without affecting most of the rest of the universe in any way. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Only by assuming limits to foreknowledge. So you're still adding nothing to the discussion that hasn't already been said.
quote: Then objections which assume that God lacks the ability to see the entire future are hardly relevant, then. Instead you are arguing against the position that to be knowable a truth must actually be true.
quote: Which is not really the ability to know the future, just the ability to coerce the future. Limiting omniscience and making all prediction very much a matter of deliberate choice.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
jar writes: If God knows the decisions we will make before we make them then we have no freewill. I don't think this is true. Again, I think it depends on what definition of freewill you're using.If you're using something like "has the ability to make a decision based upon your own personal reasoning abilities" then freewill can still exist as I've described it (God had no foreknowledge at the point of creation, but can view the future as we view the past). The only way for us to have freewill and for the God to have any foreknowledge is if the God can also be wrong. I don't think so, what about this: God created us without foreknowledge (creation of the universe - God has no idea if I'm going left or right in 2025).After being created, God has foreknowledge of what we are going to decide based upon our own personal reasoning abilities (in 2015, God has foreknowledge that I'm going to choose to take the left path in 2025). God is not wrong. In 2030, even I have past-knowledge of me taking the left path in 2025. In this scenario, God has foreknowledge, and can't be wrong (in 2015), and we have freewill.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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ringo writes: In summary, I don't think either "free will" or "omniscience" is a very useful concept. That is something I completely agree with. I think this entire conversation is moot simply because the concepts aren't really well defined and are kind of immature... in a "my dad is bigger than your dad, oh yeah? My Dad is infinite!!!" kind of sense... But, sometimes it's fun to put yourself into a sci-fi universe and see what would result if you simply assume some certain basic rules.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
PaulK writes: For your decision to knowable it must be fixed, inevitable before you even exist. Yeah, I don't see why that must be the case.I certainly understand how it would make it simple and easy for it to be knowable. Especially when talking about an "omniscient" being... I guess it depends on how you see "the future." If you see "the future" as impossible to view for any being at any time... then yeah, you're right... there's no "looking ahead" that's going to make any sense at that point. However, if you see "the future" as something that just hasn't happened yet... then you start to allow the possibility of some omniscient being knowing what's going to happen by simply viewing the future as we view the past. Certain decisions, I like to think I can choose whatever, whenever (like if I want water or pop when I go to the movies).Certain decisions, I like to think would be the same no matter what time or place they happened in (like choosing 2.5% mortgage vs. a 3.2% mortgage). Is it possible for an omniscient being to look into my future and see that even my "flippant" ("random") decisions like water or pop are as solid in-whatever-situation-I-find-myself-in-at-the-time as my "important" ("no-brainer") decisions like a cheaper mortgage rate? My thought processes for this exercise are assuming "yes" is the answer to that question.But it's not like I have any actual data to back that up If that it is true then God must know that IF he creates THAT universe then you will necessarily choose the left path. Therefore God has knowingly dictated that you will choose the left path. I agree that in this sort of situation... we do not have freewill. At this point, we could delve into a discussion about the difference between "real freewill" and "the illusion of freewill" and if there's actually any practical difference as far as "making a decision using your own intelligent reasoning skills" is concerned..
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I see no freewill in your scenario unless we can decide to take the right path and God be wrong.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: To view "the future" there must be a singular "the future" rather than a big mess of "might-be"s. And that's the point.
quote: Which is what I was describing. The future must be as fixed as the past for it to be possible to view it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: So the only way to truly have free will is if God is wrong occasionally? I see no freewill in your scenario unless we can decide to take the right path and God be wrong. Edited by Phat, : spallinChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
From God's point of view, He's always right (unless He changes His mind). If we have "free will", we should be free to consider God wrong, from our point of view.
So the only way to truly have free will is if God is wrong occasionally?
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: So the only way to truly have free will is if God is wrong occasionally? That would of course be the result but what is needed for us to have freewill is for god not to know the future.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: what is needed for us to have freewill is for god not to know the future. Is it logical for the Creator of all seen and unseen to not know the future? Is there any particular reason that we dare imagine a God who not only does not know the future but is essentially amoral? Not personable? Ive researched your basic idea of God.
jar writes: GOD is complete. GOD is all. GOD is Yin and Yang. GOD was and is and will be. Is GOD worthy of respect, acknowledgement or praise? IMHO, yes. And fear and awe. And love and honor. GOD Is! And yet humans are supposed to correct this God when God gets something wrong!! Unbelievable! Anyway...my conclusion has yet to be reached on this subject. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: His allowing us to even have free will was allowing us to even have a point of view apart from His. Perhaps He wanted us to have the freedom to disagree with Him. We may have to ask Lucifer about that one, though I doubt we could get a straight answer out of him. If we have "free will", we should be free to consider God wrong, from our point of view.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: I think I see your argument. In Gods mind, there is no choice. no free will. There simply is or is not. God has foreknowledge of what we are going to decide based upon our own personal reasoning abilities (in 2015, God has foreknowledge that I'm going to choose to take the left path in 2025).God is not wrong. In 2030, even I have past-knowledge of me taking the left path in 2025. In this scenario, God has foreknowledge, and can't be wrong (in 2015), and we have freewill. Thus within His mind we have no free will. The argument is that we could have chosen no other path than what God sees in His mind. From our standpoint, however, we behave and react as if we are making choices. Whats so wrong with that? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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