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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: For God, there is no such thing as foreknowledge. There is but knowledge. God cannot be before herself nor after herself. Does that make sense or would you like another helping of salad? The God created the human and if that God had foreknowledge that that creation would be damned regardless of whether or not the creation had freewill, then that God is vile and evil.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What I'm saying, though, is... what if that's now how God created us? What if God created us with actual free-will?That is, at the point of creation (of, say, the universe...), God does not know if I'm going to take the left path or the right path 15 billion years later in 2025. Then, immediately after we were created "with free-will"... then God looks into the future and "de-scribes" my choice of picking the left path in 2015... And my example is exactly as I described it. That, I would say, would be free-will.Even though today (in 2015) God has perfect foreknowledge of my choice in 2025. Just as I will have perfect aft-knowledge of my choice once 2030 rolls around. I guess it depends on if you think God created us with foreknowledge of what we're going to do at the time of creation or not. I don't see why that has to be one way or the other. And if done correctly, we certainly could have been created without foreknowledge while God still has complete foreknowledge of everything "for all time" (time being an element/dimension of our universe).
If God does not know which path you will take until after creating you then God did not create you with foreknowledge. It really is that simple. Edited by jar, : hit wrong keyAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: Allow me to quote a couple of scriptures which help me to understand the problem of evil. Unfortunately, those are not helpful to me. What if the scriptures are incorrect?Regardless of the reason why... how would we know? I understand that if you believe they are correct.. then yes, you can find some comfort in them.However, in my experiences, I do not find the Bible to be a very trustworthy source of valid information. At a minimum, it seems incomplete and vague for many things it attempts to be very specific about.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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jar writes: If God does not know which path you will take until after creating you then God did not create you with foreknowledge. It really is that simple. Right. That's what I just said. If God created us with foreknowledge, then we have no free-will.However, if God did not create us with foreknowledge.. and simply de-scribes our future after the point of our creation.. then we can have free-will. Is God omnipotent-enough to create us without foreknowledge? Or does omnipotence have restrictions?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: God has allowed our knowledge (and our decisions) to remain ours. This brings up the issue of communion. If God does not know which path you will take then God did not create you with foreknowledge. IF God is in communion with me this very moment, does God then "know" what I am thinking,choosing, and doing? On a human level, none of us are mind readers. Anyone who knows or claims to know what an individual may do in the future is simply coincidental. The question...the philosophical question, however...is what God knows. My argument is that God is eternally present and thus knows whatever He knows based on communion with humanity. I am then forced to describe what communion (or co-awareness) even means. This gets into the idea of whether we make each and every decision that we make alone...thus having sole responsibility for our destiny...or whether we are guided in some decisions. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: Come let us reason together. What if the scriptures are incorrect?Regardless of the reason why... how would we know? Now what were we talking about?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
In Matthew 7:23 Jesus was referring specifically to false prophets but more generally to doing good works as opposed to paying lip service to religion. He used the word "know" not in the sense of knowing facts but in the sense of knowing a person. What he was saying was, "You were never my friend." It has nothing to do with omniscience. In fact, the implication was that He DID omnisciently know all along that you weren't his friend, even though you claimed you were.
Im saying that God knows when we freely choose Him and doesn't know when we freely choose otherwise. (depart from me I never knew you)
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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If God created us with foreknowledge, then we have no free-will. However, if God did not create us with foreknowledge.. and simply de-scribes our future after the point of our creation.. then we can have free-will. Is God omnipotent-enough to create us without foreknowledge? Or does omnipotence have restrictions? If God knows the decisions we will make before we make them then we have no freewill. But if the God only knows those actions after the act of Creation then the God is not evil. The only way for us to have freewill and for the God to have any foreknowledge is if the God can also be wrong.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Keep in mind I am thinking...or attempting to think and reason...on the fly. Some of my statements may need clarification or correction so please feel free to do so. So Ringo, whats your opinion on the whole foreknowledge freewill philosophy?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I think you can't have your cake and eat it too. So Ringo, whats your opinion on the whole foreknowledge freewill philosophy? If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil. If He doesn't have foreknowledge, He may well have other limitations. In His "communion" with you, He may be exaggerating His powers. If He holds us responsible for our free choices, He must be held responsible for His. In summary, I don't think either "free will" or "omniscience" is a very useful concept.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: What if God had knowledge of evil? Would he be responsible for knowing about it? What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School. Also assume that the "Prime Directive" of Star Trek is logical.
If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil.quote:Should God also restrain Himself or should he supernaturally zap this threat from among us? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Asgara writes: I think im gonna go with the idea that God chooses to let us write our own script and determine our own future. God chooses not to know, in other words. If it is all "now" to god then it still is an issue of creating knowing what is happening...now or future doesn't matter.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How can you possibly excuse a God who would not stop him?
What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School. Phat writes:
I don't.
Also assume that the "Prime Directive" of Star Trek is logical. Phat writes:
EVERYBODY, natural or supernatural, should do as much good as possible as often as possible.
Should God also restrain Himself or should he supernaturally zap this threat from among us?
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Of course that position assumes that God is using the same moral system and perspective as we are and our moral system and perspective is malleable and changes with time, culture, era, society and mythos.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jar writes:
If there is a god with a timeless moral system, I don't see how that's relevant to us.
Of course that position assumes that God is using the same moral system and perspective as we are and our moral system and perspective is malleable and changes with time, culture, era, society and mythos.
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