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Author Topic:   Scalia is a Scoundrel
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 660 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 76 of 108 (763047)
07-20-2015 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dr Adequate
07-19-2015 9:23 PM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
As I recall, Obama and all the Democrats insisted there was no tax increases in his health care plan. I really don't believe I am that delusional to keep hearing something that was never said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2015 9:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-20-2015 1:26 AM foreveryoung has not replied
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 660 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 77 of 108 (763048)
07-20-2015 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Jon
07-19-2015 9:05 PM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
The Federalist papers were a collection of essays written to the country at large explaining the type of government Ben and the boys were cooking up. They explain in detail the thinking behind the constitution. There is no need to try and conjure up what the founders meant in what they wrote when it is all there in plain English for all to see.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 660 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 78 of 108 (763049)
07-20-2015 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by jar
07-19-2015 9:07 PM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
Define fascism and then tell me how " conservatives" fit the bill. There is no of course in my mind. I am bewildered at such a statement especially when fascism is one of the first things tat come to mind when I hear a progressive speak his mind in the heat of the moment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 07-19-2015 9:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 108 (763050)
07-20-2015 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by foreveryoung
07-20-2015 12:23 AM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
As I recall, Obama and all the Democrats insisted there was no tax increases in his health care plan.
I can't find where he said that. I do know that pretty much everyone in the freakin' world who'd so much as heard of the ACA knew that the plan involved a mandate enforced by financial penalties. And certainly everyone who bothered to read the bill knew that, because that's what it says. It's not written in invisible ink, it's right there, in black and white. Any Congressman who only realized the existence of the mandate four years later when one out of the nine Supreme Court Justices decided to refer to it as a "tax" is mentally incompetent to hold office.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by foreveryoung, posted 07-20-2015 12:23 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 80 of 108 (763051)
07-20-2015 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by foreveryoung
07-20-2015 12:32 AM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
I am bewildered at such a statement especially when fascism is one of the first things tat come to mind when I hear a progressive speak his mind in the heat of the moment.
Oh, and you so nearly had the moral high ground. But then you fell off.
Y'know, I can tell the difference between someone speaking his mind, even heatedly, and someone killing six million Jews. Perhaps you should learn the difference too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by foreveryoung, posted 07-20-2015 12:32 AM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 108 (763054)
07-20-2015 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by foreveryoung
07-20-2015 12:29 AM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
The Federalist papers were a collection of essays written to the country at large explaining the type of government Ben and the boys were cooking up.
The Federalist papers were one view of what the country should look like. But they were not 'the' type of government. And it is clear from reading both the constitution and the federalist papers that the 'Federalists' did not always end up getting their way.
I understand that it is the way of some to pretend that 1) the founding fathers are some monolithic block all in agreement on every issue and 2) that the country ought to behave exactly as that mythological view suggests. But that view is just simplistic. The founding fathers had a very limited view on what equality meant and who was able to vote and participate in democracy that we ought not emulate, and they were not in agreement on every issue.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 108 (763055)
07-20-2015 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by foreveryoung
07-20-2015 12:23 AM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
I really don't believe I am that delusional to keep hearing something that was never said.
No. The delusional part of your thinking is that there was some plot by Democrats to hide a tax. The details of the penalty for not having health care as well as the intent of the penalty were well known. The penalty was characterized as a tax by one Supreme Court Justice and not by any Democrat.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by foreveryoung, posted 07-20-2015 12:23 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 108 (763057)
07-20-2015 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by foreveryoung
07-19-2015 5:46 PM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
The shenanigans that were used to get a tax passed under the guise of a mandate smells to high heavens to me.
What is the difference between a $500 dollar penalty for not having health insurance that goes into the tax coffers and a $500 dollar tax that you can avoid by having health insurance?
Nothing at all. Let's recall that in the form that the bill was passed, it was expected that all 50 states would have exchanges, that medicare would be expanded to cover the poor in every state, and that no one except a few people wealthy enough to cover themselves would have any reason to forgo health care.
Part of this formula unraveled when the mandate to expand medicare was made voluntary.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by foreveryoung, posted 07-19-2015 5:46 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 84 of 108 (763058)
07-20-2015 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Dr Adequate
07-20-2015 1:29 AM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
Perhaps you should learn something about Fascism and no where did I mention or suggest any connection to killing.
Fascism, like Christianity, is not monotheistic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-20-2015 1:29 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 85 of 108 (763063)
07-20-2015 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by foreveryoung
07-20-2015 12:32 AM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
Fascism is an authoritarian right wing political system (see The Authoritarians). It is ultranationalistic; usually supporting a mixed economy but often promoting autarky; supporting a strong military that should be used to project the power of the nation even to the extent of influencing other nations; believe that resources should be used and that the nation has a right to needed resources even when they are held by some other nation; fear immigration and changes in demographics; have a strong religious association; believe that the role of the government is to remove obstacles to industry; are antiliberalism and anti-communist; overly concerned with the Myth of Decline and promoting a masculine role and authority.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by foreveryoung, posted 07-20-2015 12:32 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 108 (763079)
07-20-2015 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by foreveryoung
07-19-2015 8:41 PM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
foreveryoung writes:
A tax is used to raise revenue for the government. A penalty is used to dissuade you from a behavior.... Quite a difference.
Not much of a difference really. A government can use either taxes or penalties to get a corporation to comply with environmental standards, for example. From the corporation's viewpoint, it doesn't matter what you call it; it's all about the bottom line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by foreveryoung, posted 07-19-2015 8:41 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 108 (763080)
07-20-2015 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
07-20-2015 12:27 PM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
A government can use either taxes or penalties to get a corporation to comply with environmental standards, for example.
Correct. In fact the bulk of the convolution in the tax code is due to Congress providing exemptions as incentive for corporate behavior. Federalism leaves very little police power in the hands of the feds. As a result, taxing and exempting is the major method by which Congress gets individuals, corporations, and even states to do anything.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 07-20-2015 12:27 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 88 of 108 (763084)
07-20-2015 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
07-19-2015 4:19 AM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
Hi Dr,
What part of the constitution repeals Article 1 of Section 7 which states:
quote:
All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives;
It makes no difference what an appeals court or any other court says. Unless Article 1 of Section 7 of the Constitution is repealed and ratified by a vote of 3/4's of the States it is still the law.
Now if the House of Representatives are not willing to insist on all bills to raise revenue starting with them that creates a problem and all of them need to be replaced as they are not doing their job.
You say they can't insist. Sure they can all they have to do is close the purse strings and shut of all monies until their powers are restored. You say that would cause chaos. I agree. But it would not last long if they kept the purse strings closed. Everybody including you would be screaming for their powers to be restored so they would open the purse strings.
Now please explain what the word 'ALL BILLS' mean if it does not mean 'ALL BILLS'.
Raising revenue means raising revenue. It does not limit what kinds of revenue. It just says revenue.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2015 4:19 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2015 2:18 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 91 by JonF, posted 07-20-2015 2:51 PM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 108 (763085)
07-20-2015 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ICANT
07-20-2015 2:06 PM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
But it would not last long if they kept the purse strings closed. Everybody including you would be screaming for their powers to be restored so they would open the purse strings.
I seem to recall the Republicans trying exactly this stunt in an attempt to have ACA appealed. It actually turned out though that screaming about the government shutdown was fairly universal with the Democrats receiving essentially no blame for the situation, and the Tea Party eventually being excoriated. I find it surprising that you would recommend the same failed tactic. Wait. I am not surprised.
In any event, the bill that became the ACA was originated in the house, and then amended substantially in the Senate to something close to its current form. So the constitutional requirement was met. There was an opportunity to challenge the process, but the majority of House of Representatives at the time was in favor of ACA. Why would they then insist on pressing the issue?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 07-20-2015 2:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ICANT, posted 07-20-2015 2:51 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 90 of 108 (763086)
07-20-2015 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by JonF
07-19-2015 12:52 PM


Re: how can the Supreme Court make an unconstitutional decision?
Hi JonF
JonF writes:
But you are missing the fact that the ACA originated in the House.
You need to get your facts straight before you make such bold assertions.
The Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590) originated in the Senate.
The Affordable Health Care for America Act House bill", HR 3962 originated in the House.
Harry Reid could not get enough support in the Senate to pass the House bill HR 3962.
Nancy Pelosi having a democratic majority in the House mustered enough votes to pass the Senate Bill H.R. 3590.
So the Senate Bill H.R. 3590 is the one that became law.
So how do you determine the bill H.R. 3590 originated in the House?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by JonF, posted 07-19-2015 12:52 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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