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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 1237 of 1939 (756251)
04-17-2015 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1236 by Faith
04-16-2015 11:48 PM


[ Some good points, but they're directed more at a specific participant rather than at the discussion's topic, so I'm hiding this. Click "peek" to see content. --Admin ]
Edited by Admin, : Hide content.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1236 by Faith, posted 04-16-2015 11:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1322 of 1939 (756432)
04-19-2015 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Admin
04-19-2015 8:40 PM


What-ifs (again)
So what was missing from your responses was evidence. Rhetorically asking a question isn't evidence.
But it is! Any alternate explanation for a scientific fact or theory, no matter how implausible, creates enough doubt that one's continued belief in biblical explanations remains possible!
You thought evidence mattered? Silly boy!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Admin, posted 04-19-2015 8:40 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1512 of 1939 (756764)
04-26-2015 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1509 by Faith
04-26-2015 7:59 PM


You say 'drill holes" so I'm looking for holes in the rock face. I'm thinking the charges would have to be inserted into the rock face from the front through the rock that ultimately gets blasted away, but that doesn't make sense, it's just what the idea of drill holes suggests. I don't see any pattern of holes except in the picture Percy sent me where there are quite a few horizontal gashes between the lines he drew.
Faith, the problem, as shown here once again, is that you are willing to opine on matters of which you know nothing.
Most folks I know will look up something they don't know, and learn from that. I highly recommend it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1509 by Faith, posted 04-26-2015 7:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1513 by Faith, posted 04-26-2015 11:15 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 1516 of 1939 (756768)
04-27-2015 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1513 by Faith
04-26-2015 11:15 PM


ABE: Turns out it was really rather a simple problem caused by people who are aware of the procedures of road-cut blasting not realizing that someone unfamiliar with them would read "holes" as something you see from the front.
Right! You didn't know what posters were talking about, so you proceeded to opine away from ignorance rather than looking things up.
That is happening all the time. Some of the posters here are true experts their fields, while you are completely unfamiliar with those fields. But you operate from the assumption that you know better than the experts and proceed to opine at length, resisting mightily any attempts to clarify things or to actually learn something.
That is why some of these threads run on so long, and follow so many unnecessary rabbit holes into the depths. It is not the fault of posters who are far more patient than you deserve, it is because of your unwillingness to accept anything outside of your pre-conceived beliefs--no matter how well documented, or how much evidence is presented.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1513 by Faith, posted 04-26-2015 11:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(5)
Message 1525 of 1939 (756841)
04-28-2015 3:04 PM


Basic geology disproves creationism
Interesting article:
Even setting evolution aside, basic geology disproves creationism
http://phys.org/...-evolution-basic-geology-creationism.html
In the ongoing conflict between science and creationism, evolution is usually a main point of contention. The idea that all life on Earth evolved from a common ancestor is a major problem for creationists. As a geologist, though, I think that the rocks beneath our feet offer even better arguments against creationism. For the creationist model doesn't square with what you can see for yourself. And this has been known since before Darwin wrote a word about evolution.
What the rocks say
I don't have to travel very far to make this case. There's a slab of polished rock on the wall outside my department office that refutes so-called Flood Geology: the view that a global, world-shattering flood explains geologic history after the initial creation of Earth by God. This eight-foot-long slab is a conglomerate — a rock made from water-worked fragments of older rocks.
It's what you'd get if you buried a riverbed composed of many different types of rock deep enough below ground for temperature and pressure to forge it into a new rock. Preserved in it, you can see the original particles of sand, gravel and cobbles made of various kinds of rock. And if you look closely you can see some of the cobbles are themselves conglomeratesrocks within rocks.
Why does this disprove the creationist view of geology? Because a conglomerate made of fragments of an older conglomerate not only requires a first round of erosion, deposition, and burial deep enough to turn the original sediments into rock. It requires another pass through the whole cycle to turn the second pile of sedimentary rock fragments into another conglomerate.
In other words, this one rock shows that there is more to the geologic record than creationists describe in their scripturally-interpreted version of earth history. A single grand flood cannot explain it all. Embracing young Earth creationism means you have to abandon faith in the story told by the rocks themselves. This, of course, is no surprise to geologists who have established that the world is billions of years old, far older than the thousands of years that creationists infer from adding up the generations enumerated in the Bible.
More

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1526 by JonF, posted 04-28-2015 4:04 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1527 by Faith, posted 04-29-2015 7:38 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1724 of 1939 (757519)
05-09-2015 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1723 by Faith
05-09-2015 11:28 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I'd rather not get into an argument about this now, I'd rather see what happens in an experiment if you don't mind.
So do the experiment.
Then maybe you'll only be 200-300 years behind what science has already discovered.
Its a start--if you can accept the results of your own experiments.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1723 by Faith, posted 05-09-2015 11:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1725 by Faith, posted 05-09-2015 11:46 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1726 of 1939 (757521)
05-09-2015 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1725 by Faith
05-09-2015 11:46 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I could do a dry angle-of-repose experiment now, getting back to Coragyps' challenge, but the others I really can't set up properly and want to wait until family get here toward the end of June. They can also get some of the material I need that would be hard for me to get.
Fair enough.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1725 by Faith, posted 05-09-2015 11:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1757 of 1939 (760824)
06-25-2015 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1755 by Admin
06-25-2015 9:55 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I'm trying to insure that this thread in which so many have invested so much can resume discussion of the topic by making sure you're able to assure yourself of the way sediments are really deposited.
Invested so much? I think the investments were wasted.
Faith has stated many times that she does not follow the evidence, but follows belief instead. No matter the quality or amount of the evidence, it is to be denied if it contradicts her a priori belief system.
Reading this and other threads has indeed been a lesson in abnormal psychology. The adamantly maintained but flimsily supported belief-system--maintained in spite of the huge amounts of evidence that have been patiently supplied to contradict it--can only be described as anti-rational. All the efforts of a great many posters to present evidence have had no positive result.
Can we admit now that this is and has been a huge waste of time?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1755 by Admin, posted 06-25-2015 9:55 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1758 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 10:32 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1759 of 1939 (760828)
06-25-2015 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1758 by Faith
06-25-2015 10:32 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I do NOT argue on the basis of faith and I DO argue from the evidence.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1758 by Faith, posted 06-25-2015 10:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1885 of 1939 (762683)
07-14-2015 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1883 by Faith
07-14-2015 1:07 PM


Re: Resuming Discussion
Faith upthread writes:
I've stated I'm no longer making claims for which I don't have evidence.
Faith writes:
As I said, I'm no longer claiming anything I can't prove. This is my hypothesis, period. My hypothesis is that the Flood laid down ALL the strata, and that would include the Supergroup.
There is no evidence for a global flood. That religious belief has long since been disproved.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1883 by Faith, posted 07-14-2015 1:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 1925 of 1939 (762933)
07-17-2015 11:55 PM


The problem...
The problem we are seeing here is anything that might cast doubt on a biblical interpretation must be denied, no matter what the evidence shows.
Faith will put biblical interpretation or belief over real world evidence, no matter what the evidence or relative merits of the interpretation. She has told us this many times.
Those of us who do science are not used to that kind of argument. Not surprising, as it is the exact opposite of science.
We tend to follow the evidence where it leads, while Faith and other creationists deny, obfuscate, misinterpret, or otherwise ignore the evidence when it contradicts belief--anything to make it go away.
The problem (for them) is that the evidence does not go away. Denying, obfuscating, misinterpreting, or otherwise ignoring the evidence has been getting harder for over 200 years, and probably since The Enlightenment (also known as the Age of Reason), which showed that we no longer have to kowtow to the shamans amongst us.
To tie this back to the OP subject of the "great flood"--that was one of the first lines of evidence that showed that the shamans amongst us were completely wrong, and had been wrong for thousands of years. The evidence shows that the flood of the bible simply never happened.
But, true to form, creationists continue to deny, obfuscate, misinterpret, or otherwise ignore the evidence when it contradicts their beliefs.
What can you do with folks who don't rely on evidence?
That's perhaps a good question for a new thread.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

  
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