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Author | Topic: Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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That's a pathetic joke. The strata span entire continents and you've got them building up in a river valley and even leaving the landscape intact around them. The crazy shit in your head is indeed a pathetic joke, but it obviously bears no relation to anything I wrote or drew.
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Pollux Member Posts: 303 Joined: |
The website archeologyexpert.co.uk in discussing problems in C14 dating (not arguing against it) says "C14 leaches at an accelerated rate from organic matter saturated in water, especially saline water".
Obviously, knowing there is a problem to be allowed for does not invalidate all C14! {For whatever it's worth, the site is Home - Archaeology Expert (note spelling difference) - Adminnemooseus} Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add link.
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edge Member (Idle past 1706 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
That's a pathetic joke. The strata span entire continents and you've got them building up in a river valley and even leaving the landscape intact around them.
Please give an example of such a formation that spans a continent.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2106 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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archeologyexpert.co.uk
That seems to be a crank or creationist site, at least from reading their C14 page. I wouldn't trust anything they say without verifying it elsewhere. Certainly their C14 page contains some standard creationist nonsense. {For whatever it's worth, the site is Home - Archaeology Expert (note spelling difference) - Adminnemooseus} Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add link.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2373 days) Posts: 564 Joined:
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Well, they're Ron Wyatt fans so that sort of puts anything they say in perspective.
The Stones of Exodus - Archaeology Expert
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2373 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
So I've searched high and low and using search terms like "C14 saline leach[ing]" and all I get are references to that one site and dead end from there.
At first I suspected that he was just confusing the reservoir effect and thinking it was a salt water issue, but now I'm guessing that it has to do with the claims of this website. JB
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2373 days) Posts: 564 Joined:
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I would think that something like saline, if it leached at all would leach C12 just like C14 and leave the ratio the same, but what do I know.
JB
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Please give an example of such a formation that spans a continent. Faith's not as wrong as she usually is, because you can get something close to this during a major marine transgression. For example, halfway through the Ordovician much of North America was covered by a shallow sea, except in the east, where the Taconic Highlands (now, much reduced, the Appalachian mountains) formed an island chain. Now, obviously nothing was deposited on the Taconic Highlands, which were an erosional environment. And, as you would expect, in the area to the west of the Taconic Highlands deposition was dominated by sediment eroded off the Highlands. But then west of that you do have vast areas where carbonates were deposited, which is just what you'd expect in a warm shallow sea.
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Hi Faith,
First you complain that Dr Adequate didn't explain how the strata form when he did, then when he points out that he *did* explain how the strata form you next complain that his example didn't address your scenario about continent spanning strata when it was intended to address your concerns about mountain formation and erosion and the strata that form from that erosion. This complaining just to complain isn't helpful. You also seem unaware that the principles Dr Adequate illustrated apply equally well to seas whose sediments eventually become part of continents. Your participation in this thread could be very helpful if you brought up your objections and concerns in the context of the topic, which is about an earth science curriculum for receptive YECs. Full blown discussions of your favorite ideas don't really fit here. About continent spanning strata, strata really only span the region of a homogenous depositional environment, which isn't static but can move around (for example, a coastline (which can represent as many as three adjacent homogenous depositional environments: sand, shale and limestone) will move back and forth as sea levels rise and fall). A stratigraphic layer could span a continent, but one wouldn't expect it to be common. For example, the Kaibab limestone spans several western states, but it's actual deposition was not simultaneous across the region. The Kaibab was deposited offshore from a coastline that shifted back and forth across the region as sea levels rose and fell. But the important point is that there is no requirement or expectation that strata should span continents. I'm sure there are lots of legitimate challenges that you could raise. For example, if a shale sedimentary layer is miles and miles in extent in all directions, then doesn't that mean it could only have formed as a result of a single transgression or regression? But if that's true then why do people keep talking about multiple transgressions and regressions? Wouldn't multiple transgressions and regressions result in alternating sand, shale and possibly limestone layers, and not in a thick shale layer? Edited by Admin, : Typo.
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edge Member (Idle past 1706 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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About continent spanning strata, strata really only span the region of a homogenous depositional environment, which isn't static but can move around (for example, a coastline (which can represent as many as three adjacent homogenous depositional environments: sand, shale and limestone) will move back and forth as sea levels rise and fall). A stratigraphic layer could span a continent, but one wouldn't expect it to be common.
This is exactly correct. It is rare for a single depositional environment to exist over a broad (continental scale) area at one time. An example would be he Cretaceous Chalk deposits of western Europe. The basal Cambrian sandstone formations might be another example, but the fact is that these are beach sands which require (guess what) emergent land masses and erosion. However, some of the most widespread deposits that we know of such as the Navajo Sandstone of the western United States have no lithological equivalent in other parts of the continent. There may be some chronological equivalents, but there are no great ergs in almost any direction. I guess that, basically, what I'm saying is that things are a lot more complex than the common YEC understanding of large scale sedimentation.
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Pollux Member Posts: 303 Joined:
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Point taken.
The brief comments I saw that he wrote about RM dating appeared unexceptionable. My search for "saline and carbon dating" turned up "Carbon Isotope exchange during calcite interaction with brine", which concluded it could inflate C14 age by 10%, so that leaves about 790% of change still required for YEC! {My guess at a source link for the above: Radiocarbon - Adminnemooseus} The speaker at the wife's church two weeks ago told how dinosaurs and men coexisted. He was back this week spending his time rubbishing Dawkins and evolution. I spoke to him after and showed him graphs for C14 correlation with tree rings and Suigetsu varves, which he had not seen before. His main argument against RM dating is all the "wrong" dates do not get published - those dastardly archaeologists et al spend lots of good money on dates to get a few they can use. Coyote, your cover is blown! Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add a link.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You didn't say not to respond to this so I'm responding.
I have added some to my topic proposal in answer to Dr. A's insulting and ridiculous explanation of how strata form. I haven't yet tried to deal with the corrections you request there though. I really prefer to use casual concepts in discussing these things, we shouldn't have to be prissily scientific about everything and even when I try to do that edge never understands me anyway so what's the point. However I do intend to add some more scientific language as you ask. I don't see a role for me on this thread though. If you don't want to promote the proposal I still don't see a role for me here.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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I have added some to my topic proposal in answer to Dr. A's insulting and ridiculous explanation of how strata form. Insulting and ridiculous? Yes indeed. The idea that sediment is deposited by the processes which we can observe depositing sediment is not just a grotesque error in logic but an outrageous assault on all that is good, decent and true.
I really prefer to use casual concepts in discussing these things, we shouldn't have to be prissily scientific about everything ... Fortunately you are at little risk of that.
I don't see a role for me on this thread though. How about as a warning and example to others?
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Hi Faith,
Much of your post was about your topic proposal (The Absurdities of the Geologic Time Scale). If I have any responses I'll post them over there, but about this:
Faith writes: I don't see a role for me on this thread though. You could help guide discussion to issues of concern for YECs, and then if any heavy discussions begin to develop new threads can be proposed.
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Hi Edge,
Is there an answer to my question about how thick shale layers great in extent form?
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