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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 826 of 1053 (760965)
06-26-2015 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by Faith
06-26-2015 7:01 PM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
That's a pathetic joke. The strata span entire continents and you've got them building up in a river valley and even leaving the landscape intact around them.
The crazy shit in your head is indeed a pathetic joke, but it obviously bears no relation to anything I wrote or drew.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 7:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 827 of 1053 (760972)
06-26-2015 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by ThinAirDesigns
06-26-2015 2:26 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
The website archeologyexpert.co.uk in discussing problems in C14 dating (not arguing against it) says "C14 leaches at an accelerated rate from organic matter saturated in water, especially saline water".
Obviously, knowing there is a problem to be allowed for does not invalidate all C14!
{For whatever it's worth, the site is Home - Archaeology Expert (note spelling difference) - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add link.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-26-2015 2:26 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by Coyote, posted 06-26-2015 9:05 PM Pollux has replied
 Message 830 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-26-2015 10:07 PM Pollux has not replied
 Message 867 by RAZD, posted 06-28-2015 5:58 PM Pollux has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 828 of 1053 (760975)
06-26-2015 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by Faith
06-26-2015 7:01 PM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
That's a pathetic joke. The strata span entire continents and you've got them building up in a river valley and even leaving the landscape intact around them.
Please give an example of such a formation that spans a continent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 7:01 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-26-2015 10:26 PM edge has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 829 of 1053 (760977)
06-26-2015 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Pollux
06-26-2015 7:27 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
archeologyexpert.co.uk
That seems to be a crank or creationist site, at least from reading their C14 page.
I wouldn't trust anything they say without verifying it elsewhere.
Certainly their C14 page contains some standard creationist nonsense.
{For whatever it's worth, the site is Home - Archaeology Expert (note spelling difference) - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add link.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-26-2015 10:10 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 832 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-26-2015 10:12 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 836 by Pollux, posted 06-27-2015 1:53 AM Coyote has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 830 of 1053 (760978)
06-26-2015 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Pollux
06-26-2015 7:27 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
Well, they're Ron Wyatt fans so that sort of puts anything they say in perspective.
The Stones of Exodus - Archaeology Expert

This message is a reply to:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 831 of 1053 (760980)
06-26-2015 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by Coyote
06-26-2015 9:05 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
So I've searched high and low and using search terms like "C14 saline leach[ing]" and all I get are references to that one site and dead end from there.
At first I suspected that he was just confusing the reservoir effect and thinking it was a salt water issue, but now I'm guessing that it has to do with the claims of this website.
JB

This message is a reply to:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 832 of 1053 (760981)
06-26-2015 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by Coyote
06-26-2015 9:05 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
I would think that something like saline, if it leached at all would leach C12 just like C14 and leave the ratio the same, but what do I know.
JB

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 833 of 1053 (760982)
06-26-2015 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by edge
06-26-2015 8:37 PM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
Please give an example of such a formation that spans a continent.
Faith's not as wrong as she usually is, because you can get something close to this during a major marine transgression. For example, halfway through the Ordovician much of North America was covered by a shallow sea, except in the east, where the Taconic Highlands (now, much reduced, the Appalachian mountains) formed an island chain. Now, obviously nothing was deposited on the Taconic Highlands, which were an erosional environment. And, as you would expect, in the area to the west of the Taconic Highlands deposition was dominated by sediment eroded off the Highlands. But then west of that you do have vast areas where carbonates were deposited, which is just what you'd expect in a warm shallow sea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by edge, posted 06-26-2015 8:37 PM edge has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 834 of 1053 (760985)
06-26-2015 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by Faith
06-26-2015 7:01 PM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
Hi Faith,
First you complain that Dr Adequate didn't explain how the strata form when he did, then when he points out that he *did* explain how the strata form you next complain that his example didn't address your scenario about continent spanning strata when it was intended to address your concerns about mountain formation and erosion and the strata that form from that erosion. This complaining just to complain isn't helpful. You also seem unaware that the principles Dr Adequate illustrated apply equally well to seas whose sediments eventually become part of continents.
Your participation in this thread could be very helpful if you brought up your objections and concerns in the context of the topic, which is about an earth science curriculum for receptive YECs. Full blown discussions of your favorite ideas don't really fit here.
About continent spanning strata, strata really only span the region of a homogenous depositional environment, which isn't static but can move around (for example, a coastline (which can represent as many as three adjacent homogenous depositional environments: sand, shale and limestone) will move back and forth as sea levels rise and fall). A stratigraphic layer could span a continent, but one wouldn't expect it to be common. For example, the Kaibab limestone spans several western states, but it's actual deposition was not simultaneous across the region. The Kaibab was deposited offshore from a coastline that shifted back and forth across the region as sea levels rose and fell. But the important point is that there is no requirement or expectation that strata should span continents.
I'm sure there are lots of legitimate challenges that you could raise. For example, if a shale sedimentary layer is miles and miles in extent in all directions, then doesn't that mean it could only have formed as a result of a single transgression or regression? But if that's true then why do people keep talking about multiple transgressions and regressions? Wouldn't multiple transgressions and regressions result in alternating sand, shale and possibly limestone layers, and not in a thick shale layer?
Edited by Admin, : Typo.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 7:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by edge, posted 06-27-2015 12:12 AM Admin has replied
 Message 837 by Faith, posted 06-27-2015 2:55 AM Admin has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 835 of 1053 (760993)
06-27-2015 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 834 by Admin
06-26-2015 10:45 PM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
About continent spanning strata, strata really only span the region of a homogenous depositional environment, which isn't static but can move around (for example, a coastline (which can represent as many as three adjacent homogenous depositional environments: sand, shale and limestone) will move back and forth as sea levels rise and fall). A stratigraphic layer could span a continent, but one wouldn't expect it to be common.
This is exactly correct. It is rare for a single depositional environment to exist over a broad (continental scale) area at one time. An example would be he Cretaceous Chalk deposits of western Europe. The basal Cambrian sandstone formations might be another example, but the fact is that these are beach sands which require (guess what) emergent land masses and erosion.
However, some of the most widespread deposits that we know of such as the Navajo Sandstone of the western United States have no lithological equivalent in other parts of the continent. There may be some chronological equivalents, but there are no great ergs in almost any direction.
I guess that, basically, what I'm saying is that things are a lot more complex than the common YEC understanding of large scale sedimentation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by Admin, posted 06-26-2015 10:45 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by Admin, posted 06-27-2015 7:44 AM edge has replied
 Message 841 by jar, posted 06-27-2015 9:29 AM edge has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 836 of 1053 (760997)
06-27-2015 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 829 by Coyote
06-26-2015 9:05 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
Point taken.
The brief comments I saw that he wrote about RM dating appeared unexceptionable.
My search for "saline and carbon dating" turned up "Carbon Isotope exchange during calcite interaction with brine", which concluded it could inflate C14 age by 10%, so that leaves about 790% of change still required for YEC!
{My guess at a source link for the above: Radiocarbon - Adminnemooseus}
The speaker at the wife's church two weeks ago told how dinosaurs and men coexisted. He was back this week spending his time rubbishing Dawkins and evolution. I spoke to him after and showed him graphs for C14 correlation with tree rings and Suigetsu varves, which he had not seen before. His main argument against RM dating is all the "wrong" dates do not get published - those dastardly archaeologists et al spend lots of good money on dates to get a few they can use.
Coyote, your cover is blown!
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add a link.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 837 of 1053 (761001)
06-27-2015 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 834 by Admin
06-26-2015 10:45 PM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
You didn't say not to respond to this so I'm responding.
I have added some to my topic proposal in answer to Dr. A's insulting and ridiculous explanation of how strata form.
I haven't yet tried to deal with the corrections you request there though. I really prefer to use casual concepts in discussing these things, we shouldn't have to be prissily scientific about everything and even when I try to do that edge never understands me anyway so what's the point. However I do intend to add some more scientific language as you ask.
I don't see a role for me on this thread though. If you don't want to promote the proposal I still don't see a role for me here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by Admin, posted 06-26-2015 10:45 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-27-2015 3:31 AM Faith has not replied
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 838 of 1053 (761004)
06-27-2015 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 837 by Faith
06-27-2015 2:55 AM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
I have added some to my topic proposal in answer to Dr. A's insulting and ridiculous explanation of how strata form.
Insulting and ridiculous? Yes indeed. The idea that sediment is deposited by the processes which we can observe depositing sediment is not just a grotesque error in logic but an outrageous assault on all that is good, decent and true.
I really prefer to use casual concepts in discussing these things, we shouldn't have to be prissily scientific about everything ...
Fortunately you are at little risk of that.
I don't see a role for me on this thread though.
How about as a warning and example to others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by Faith, posted 06-27-2015 2:55 AM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 839 of 1053 (761007)
06-27-2015 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 837 by Faith
06-27-2015 2:55 AM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
Hi Faith,
Much of your post was about your topic proposal (The Absurdities of the Geologic Time Scale). If I have any responses I'll post them over there, but about this:
Faith writes:
I don't see a role for me on this thread though.
You could help guide discussion to issues of concern for YECs, and then if any heavy discussions begin to develop new threads can be proposed.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by Faith, posted 06-27-2015 2:55 AM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 840 of 1053 (761010)
06-27-2015 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 835 by edge
06-27-2015 12:12 AM


Re: A Picture Book For Faith. See Spot Run. Run Spot, Run.
Hi Edge,
Is there an answer to my question about how thick shale layers great in extent form?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by edge, posted 06-27-2015 12:12 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 846 by edge, posted 06-27-2015 11:18 AM Admin has replied

  
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