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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 796 of 1053 (760877)
06-26-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 794 by Dr Adequate
06-26-2015 11:19 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
It's easy to say No No No we don't believe that, but how about you describe exactly how it DID happen then? How do you get a new topographically varied landscape to form on top of a slab of rock that represents the previous supposedly topograqphically varied landscape?
ABE: Remember we're talking CONTINENT-SPANNING slabs of rock here. Doesn't leave a lot of SPACE, let alone material, for future landscape-building.
Come on give it your best Rube Goldberg shot.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-26-2015 11:19 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by edge, posted 06-26-2015 11:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 813 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-26-2015 3:43 PM Faith has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 797 of 1053 (760878)
06-26-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 791 by Faith
06-26-2015 11:12 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
And then those dinosaurs that roamed around on top of the previous slab of rock/ time period, ate what? Something gigantic with deep roots wouldn't you suppose: Deep enough to reach down into, say, the Permian or even deeper than that? Funny we don't find tree roots in those layers though.
I'm just trying to understand how all those time periods supposedly with the same kind iof topography we have today, got compressed into neat flat packages of rock of particular kinds of sediment, and where the stuff needed to form the next landscape with similar topography could come from.
THIS is why you don't have time to continue our discussion of population genetics??? Oh brother
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:30 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 798 of 1053 (760880)
06-26-2015 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 797 by herebedragons
06-26-2015 11:24 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
Yeah, well, ya know HBD, stuff happens. I need a lot more time to digest the weird ideas of population genetics than to deal with the bizarre stuff of strata geology,.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2015 11:24 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 799 of 1053 (760881)
06-26-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 796 by Faith
06-26-2015 11:24 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
It's easy to say No No No we don't believe that, but how about you describe exactly how it DID happen then? How do you get a new topographically varied landscape to form on top of a slab of rock that represents the previous supposedly topograqphically varied landscape?
Perhaps by filling in the low spots in the landscape?
Maybe this image of a seismic cross-section will help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:42 AM edge has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 800 of 1053 (760882)
06-26-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 795 by Faith
06-26-2015 11:21 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
The underground canyon needs a special mechanism? How about the same kind of mechanism that carved the Grand Canyon, you know, rushing water that in this case ran between the layers? Rushing water washed away a mile's depth of sediment over the Grand Canyon, scouring its rim down to the Permian. Why should there be a problem with water doing something similar underground, dislodging sediments and\ carving out underground spaces, that even get filled in by more sediment-laden water?
Didn't I show you maps of underground cave systems contrasted with sub-aerial erosional channels? There really is no comparison between the two - except they are both carved by water.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by edge, posted 06-26-2015 11:35 AM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 802 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:36 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 801 of 1053 (760883)
06-26-2015 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by herebedragons
06-26-2015 11:31 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
Didn't I show you maps of underground cave systems contrasted with sub-aerial erosional channels? There really is no comparison between the two - except they are both carved by water.
You're way ahead of me. I'm still trying to figure out what an underground canyon is...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2015 11:31 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 802 of 1053 (760884)
06-26-2015 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by herebedragons
06-26-2015 11:31 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
Gosh there must be lots of things water can do that have escaped the understanding of establishment geology, which after all denies the truth of the Flood so can't be counted on to get other things right. Sure seems to me like the stuff I've been pointing out here hasn't been answered at all, and won't be of course, too much at stake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2015 11:31 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 803 of 1053 (760886)
06-26-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 799 by edge
06-26-2015 11:31 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
We're trying to explain how anything like the entire current surface of the earth, massively eroded massive geological structures of various kinds of rocks and sediments, could ever have existed for hundreds of millions of years of previous time periods, how the mountains grew up and then collapsed down and valleys filled in until the whole shebang wrapped up into a slab of rock that spanned an entire continent, and how that scenario got repeated time and time again to create the entire Geologic Column and you think your seismic picture says anything at all about that?
ABE: Oh, plus the fact that today's erosion cuts deeply into the previous "time periods" for the first time in history.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by edge, posted 06-26-2015 11:31 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by edge, posted 06-26-2015 11:52 AM Faith has replied
 Message 811 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-26-2015 3:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 804 of 1053 (760890)
06-26-2015 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 803 by Faith
06-26-2015 11:42 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
We're trying to explain how anything like the entire current surface of the earth, massively eroded massive geological structures of various kinds of rocks and sediments, could ever have existed for hundreds of millions of years ...
That's the point. They didn't.
... of previous time periods, ...
What's the problem with previous time periods?
... how the mountains grew up and then collapsed down and valleys filled in until the whole shebang wrapped up into a slab of rock that spanned an entire continent, ...
I'm not seeing the problem. How widespread should a geological formation be?
Can you tell me about a formation that spans an entire continent?
... and how that scenario got repeated time and time again to create the entire Geologic Column ...
Did you ever hear of geologic time?
... and you think your seismic picture says anything at all about that?
It shows pre-existing topography being filled in by sedimentation. The upper layers are flat.
As you wish.
And who is 'we'?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:54 AM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 805 of 1053 (760891)
06-26-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 804 by edge
06-26-2015 11:52 AM


Re: Ah yes, Rationalization is a Wonderful Scientific Tool
There is no such thing as Geological Time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by edge, posted 06-26-2015 11:52 AM edge has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 806 of 1053 (760892)
06-26-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 785 by Faith
06-26-2015 10:54 AM


Off-Topic Notice
Faith writes:
Now tell us where the mountains came...
I'm going to rule that questioning the basic tenets of geology, such as that tectonic forces and continental motions produce mountains, is on-topic because it would be very helpful to the thread's topic.
But I'm going to rule that asking what are the basic tenets of geology, such as how mountains are built, is off-topic. In this case you've participated in many threads where the process of mountain building has been described, and whether you agree with it or not it makes no sense to pretend ignorance of it.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 10:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 807 of 1053 (760924)
06-26-2015 2:26 PM


Saline and Carbon Dating
So this guy (SDA Evangelist Doug Batchelor) is a primary focus of the 'debunking' portions of my program as my family thinks he's just the Bomb. He essentially tries to "out Hovind" Hovind in his talks. I've actually made good progress with my family regarding his credibility by showing just how bad his crap is.
Here is a 25 second clip where he makes an amazing claim regarding saline and carbon dating. Normally I can find stuff like this floating around and figure out where it came from, but I'm coming up blank in this regard on this topic. Any suggestions?
Though I shortened the clip for brevity, he IS talking C14 dating here, even though he's talking fossil dating. This claim follow the usual Hovind style Clam and Woolly Mammoth claims.
Thanks
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 2:48 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied
 Message 817 by 46&2, posted 06-26-2015 5:32 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied
 Message 821 by dwise1, posted 06-26-2015 5:59 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied
 Message 827 by Pollux, posted 06-26-2015 7:27 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied
 Message 866 by RAZD, posted 06-28-2015 5:25 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 808 of 1053 (760925)
06-26-2015 2:45 PM


How do you get a mountain out of a slab of rock
Just for the record, I have never questioned the standard geological explanation of how mountains were formed tectonically, I've many times included the fact in my own scenarios.
Questioning "how mountains are built" is not something I've done either that I know of. On this thread a few posts up, however, I did say this:
Now tell us where the mountains came from when all there is on the surface of the earth is the slab of rock from the previous time period, that as far as we can tell stayed a slab of rock until recent time ...
That is, when all you have is a slab of rock, which would have been the case with any of the strata that extend across the entire continent before the next "time period" came along, and when the slab stayed a slab, which they all did until recent time, there is no source of mountain building to be had. And if there are no mountains there is no landscape, there is only the slab of rock and all the other slabs of rock just stack on top of it until recent time when all the massive erosion occurred that we live on and when the mountains formed too along with the canyons that cut deep into the strata and all the rest of it. I believe this topic is within the allowable subjects.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by Admin, posted 06-26-2015 2:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 809 of 1053 (760926)
06-26-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by ThinAirDesigns
06-26-2015 2:26 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
I've never heard that before about a saline solution interfering with dating methods. Why don't you answer him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-26-2015 2:26 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 819 by dwise1, posted 06-26-2015 5:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 810 of 1053 (760927)
06-26-2015 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by Faith
06-26-2015 2:45 PM


Re: How do you get a mountain out of a slab of rock
Hi Faith,
In Message 806 I requested that there be no replies to the message, yet you're responding to it anyway. Do you somehow believe that using the general reply button makes it okay?
Faith writes:
Questioning "how mountains are built" is not something I've done either that I know of. On this thread a few posts up, however, I did say this:
Now tell us where the mountains came from when all there is on the surface of the earth is the slab of rock from the previous time period, that as far as we can tell stayed a slab of rock until recent time ...
That is, when all you have is a slab of rock, which would have been the case with any of the strata that extend across the entire continent before the next "time period" came along, and when the slab stayed a slab, which they all did until recent time, there is no source of mountain building to be had. And if there are no mountains there is no landscape, there is only the slab of rock. I believe this topic is within the allowable subjects.
Are you saying that this is what YEC's believe happened? If so then yes, indubitably, it is on-topic. But if you're saying that this is what you think geology believes happened, then no, it isn't what geology believes happened, and if you want to argue this point then you'll have to take it to another thread.
Please, no replies to this message in any form. If you have further concerns or questions please take them to Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 2:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
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