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Author | Topic: Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2403 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
Hi folks. Though I've been quiet on this thread for a while, I've been working pretty darn hard on my earth science education. Y'all were such a great resource and I've been studying hard with the material you all have provided. Thanks
One problem I have is there are some search terms that become swamped with garbage (as you all would know) that it's really hard to get down to something with hard science behind it. I have a question about C14 in diamonds. (I've read the kbertsche critique of RATE). Searching "C14 in diamonds" is one of those swamped terms. I have a lot of puzzle pieces and I'm trying to put them together and the question I'm asking here is not directly related to the RATE project but it is related. I know that C14 is produced by nitrogen being bombarded with radiation (layman description). I know that the most common impurity in diamonds is nitrogen. I know that decay in rocks produce measurable radiation. Do these puzzle pieces fit together? A: if I take a diamond with nitrogen impurities in it and bombard it with radiation (either lab, or take it to upper atmosphere or whatever) will it contain a fresh dose of measurable C14? B: If a diamond is positioned underground near a geological formation that is producing radiation, will there be a somewhat constant replenishment of C14 in the diamond? Again, I'm not trying to assert that this was the issue with the RATE diamonds, I'm just trying to figure out what would happen in the above scenarios.. Thanks (again) JB
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is only one Chauvet Cave after all. Then there were two.
quote: Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2403 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
CONFIRMATION!!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
A: if I take a diamond with nitrogen impurities in it and bombard it with radiation (either lab, or take it to upper atmosphere or whatever) will it contain a fresh dose of measurable C14? B: If a diamond is positioned underground near a geological formation that is producing radiation, will there be a somewhat constant replenishment of C14 in the diamond? One place to search for this stuff is in the archives here. We discussed this particular topic ad nauseum with a creationist sometime in the last six months. You might expect a small percentage (on order of 1 %) of N atoms to be included in the lattice of a diamond, and a local source of neutrons might well convert that Nitrogen to C-14. Thermal neutrons (meaning neutrons slowed to energies near caused by room temperature) are most easily absorbed by Nitrogen. Try the words nitrogen and diamonds in the local search facility. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Use of natural diamonds to monitor C-14 AMS instrument backgrounds
http://www.ess.uci.edu/pub/4372 Abstract: To examine one component of the instrument-based background in the University of California Keck Carbon Cycle AMS spectrometer, we have obtained measurements on a set of natural diamonds pressed into sample holders. Natural diamond samples (N = 14) from different sources within rock formations with geological ages greatly in excess of 100 Ma yielded a range of currents (similar to 110-250 mu A C-12-where filamentous graphite typically yields similar to 150 mu A C-12(-)) and apparent C-14 ages (64.9 +/- 0.4 ka BP [0.00031 +/- 0.00002 fm] to 80.0 +/- 1.1 ka BP [0.00005 +/- 0.00001 fm]). Six fragments cut from a single diamond exhibited essentially identical C-14 values - 69.3 +/- 0.5 ka-70.6 +/- 0.5 ka BP. The oldest C-14 age equivalents were measured on natural diamonds which exhibited the highest current yields. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Hi folks. Though I've been quiet on this thread for a while, I've been working pretty darn hard on my earth science education. Y'all were such a great resource and I've been studying hard with the material you all have provided. Thanks
Well, it is a plausible explanation.One problem I have is there are some search terms that become swamped with garbage (as you all would know) that it's really hard to get down to something with hard science behind it. I have a question about C14 in diamonds. (I've read the kbertsche critique of RATE). Searching "C14 in diamonds" is one of those swamped terms. I have a lot of puzzle pieces and I'm trying to put them together and the question I'm asking here is not directly related to the RATE project but it is related. I know that C14 is produced by nitrogen being bombarded with radiation (layman description). I know that the most common impurity in diamonds is nitrogen. I know that decay in rocks produce measurable radiation. Do these puzzle pieces fit together? A: if I take a diamond with nitrogen impurities in it and bombard it with radiation (either lab, or take it to upper atmosphere or whatever) will it contain a fresh dose of measurable C14? B: If a diamond is positioned underground near a geological formation that is producing radiation, will there be a somewhat constant replenishment of C14 in the diamond? Again, I'm not trying to assert that this was the issue with the RATE diamonds, I'm just trying to figure out what would happen in the above scenarios.. Thanks (again) JB The point here is that the kinds of C14 values we can see with modern techniques (such as the ones that YECs expound) are on the order of counting individual atoms. It starts to become what we call 'background' values, in other words meaningless values because they are always present due to a number of extraneous inputs. Remember, 'the data is in the signal', not the noise. YECs focus on the noise... Now, where does this noise come from? Probably a number of sources, the most common of which is contamination (and with a common and light isotope, C14, this is a very real problem). But there are probably other sources (also under the heading of 'contamination') by recently produced C14. The commonness of radioactive minerals containing uranium and/or thorium in the earth's crust, along with the abundance of nitrogen in diamonds, etc., is just too much of a coincidence to ignore. It also turns out that the residence time of ground water (ultimately derived form rain water (and atmospheric CO2)) is on the order of tens of thousands of years. Well, guess what... that impinges on the range of radiocarbon usefulness in dating. So, if a sample were exposed to groundwater, some exchange of carbon might be expected causing another source of contamination. Another coincidence? Okay, all of the contamination that I am talking about occurs in the ground, before sampling. So notice that all of the heroic efforts referred to by YECs to reduce contamination in the lab are essentially meaningless. No matter what you do, contamination has already occurred... So, ignore that part of the YEC argument. Most contamination occurs before the sample gets to the lab. I guess my point is that there are just too many ways, including blunders by the lab, to be concerned with extremely low values of C14. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Use of natural diamonds to monitor C-14 AMS instrument backgrounds
Exactly. Extremely low values are essentially meaningless. In pure, unaffected diamonds, you can see the theoretical limit of about 70ky ages. Few actual, natural materials can make this hurdle. Good reference. I've been looking for something like this.
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2403 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
Thanks Coyote. All I can find is a paywall for that article. Anyone have a copy? TIA
JB
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I think I have a copy at the office but won't be there until Tuesday.
But maybe try E-mail: ervin.taylor@ucr.edu Taylor is a nice fellow, maybe he'll be able to send you a copy.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2403 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
Thanks again Coyote. I'll try both routes.
JB
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
First off thanks,
Message 615: My only comment on conscilience as it related to the varves is that while more sources from a given types are obviously better, even a single source from a divergent type that fits well with other types is of great value. In other words, I find confirming value greater in one set of varves added to the data set that I would find from *another* tree ring set. Indeed, especially when it shows a continued "trendency" so that "all things considered" if there is no reason to posit changes one would expect them the represent reality.
As I understand varves, it's not often finding the needed components and conditions to product them and thus it's not likely that we will find a hundred other locations of use. The best correlation is with a set of marine varves, however this introduces reservoir effect. Now Diamonds: I am more familiar with oil samples, and there is a good discussion on this on PRATT Claim CD011.6, but follow the link to
Kathleen Hunt article Carbon-14 in Coal Deposits quote: The 14C detected levels correlate with radioactivity, varying widely for coals of the same approximate age. There is also information of 14C production in the carbon rods used in nuclear reactors (and spent rods have high radioactivity) And it should be obvious that any effect on one sample of old carbon can be applied to all others such samples (coal, oil, diamonds, etc) So there is a LOT of evidence of radioactivity causing 14C in old carbon. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
I know that C14 is produced by nitrogen being bombarded with radiation (layman description). I know that the most common impurity in diamonds is nitrogen. I know that decay in rocks produce measurable radiation. Do these puzzle pieces fit together? A: if I take a diamond with nitrogen impurities in it and bombard it with radiation (either lab, or take it to upper atmosphere or whatever) will it contain a fresh dose of measurable C14? B: If a diamond is positioned underground near a geological formation that is producing radiation, will there be a somewhat constant replenishment of C14 in the diamond? Again, I'm not trying to assert that this was the issue with the RATE diamonds, I'm just trying to figure out what would happen in the above scenarios.. I wouldn't expect much if any N in diamond. As a crystal crystallizes, it tends to push impurities away. Impurities generally mess up the crystal structure, so they end up at grain boundaries between crystals. (Coal is a different story; coal can have high levels of nitrogen.). {ABE: I misspoke here. N can be incorporated into the crystal lattice of diamond, so is not all pushed away.} N-14 has a high "cross section" for an (n,p) reaction, producing C-14. So if any nitrogen is present and there is a neutron source (e.g. Uranium or thorium) nearby, some C-14 will be created. I also highly recommend the Taylor & Southon paper. It's pretty terse; you'll need to read it a few times to get what they are saying. Throughout their paper they comment that the radiocarbon they measure does not actually come from inside the diamond, but from the surface of the diamond (due to ion source contamination) and from the instrument. In fact, this was the whole purpose of their experiment; since diamond is hydrophobic they reasoned that it would exhibit less ion source contamination than graphite does. (BTW, John Baumgardner of the RATE project finally commented on my explanations of "radiocarbon in diamonds" and the Taylor & Southon paper a few months ago. His comments were featured on the Answers In Genesis website just a few weeks back. I encourage you to read his comments next to the Taylor & Southon paper. You'll see that Baumgardner mischaracterizes and misinterprets what they wrote.) Edited by kbertsche, : Added correction about N in diamond and comments about neutron range in solids. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. Edited by kbertsche, : Corrected neutron range comments after coffee. Edited by kbertsche, : Deleted comments about neutron range after more coffee."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I wouldn't expect much if any N in diamond. As a crystal crystallizes, it tends to push impurities away. Impurities generally mess up the crystal structure, so they end up at grain boundaries between crystals. (Coal is a different story; coal can have high levels of nitrogen.) Interesting. Most of the literature I've seen indicates that Nitrogen and Boron can be incorporated into a diamond lattice, but rarely show up as interstitial impurities. Not in large amounts, but certainly amounts that might interfere with C-14 dating are possible. But generally the amounts to be expected are low and diamonds with any C-14 in them from N impurities might well be the exception rather than the rule.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Interesting. Most of the literature I've seen indicates that Nitrogen and Boron can be incorporated into a diamond lattice, but rarely show up as interstitial impurities.
Oops, maybe I spoke too quickly. Wikipedia has a nice discussion of impurities in diamond; apparently nitrogen can be incorporated into the crystal lattice in amounts up to about 1%. This is higher than I thought."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Thanks Coyote. All I can find is a paywall for that article. Anyone have a copy? TIA
I sent you a copy.JB "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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