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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1741 of 1939 (757989)
05-17-2015 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1740 by snapdragon
05-17-2015 9:24 PM


Re: NY roadcut pictures
Today I had the opportunity to visit the area near the St. Lawrence River where the roadside unconformity (discussed earlier) is located. Here's a link to the pictures This item might not exist or is no longer available - OneDrive...
They may or may not be useful, but it was nice just to touch and see them firsthand.
Nice photos. Not sure if they resolve much of the discussion, but the 'gaps' seem to have disappeared, and still, we see no faults that penetrate across the unconformity. The lower white beach sand still appears draped across the irregular top of the gneiss. Thanks for the pictures.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1742 of 1939 (757994)
05-18-2015 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1740 by snapdragon
05-17-2015 9:24 PM


Re: NY roadcut pictures
They certainly make it clear that there are small overhangs between layers and no deep caves or floating layers.

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Admin
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Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1743 of 1939 (760560)
06-23-2015 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1725 by Faith
05-09-2015 11:46 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
Faith writes:
I could do a dry angle-of-repose experiment now, getting back to Coragyps' challenge, but the others I really can't set up properly and want to wait until family get here toward the end of June. They can also get some of the material I need that would be hard for me to get.
It's toward the end of June - let the thread know if you need any last minute assistance or information.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1744 of 1939 (760566)
06-23-2015 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1743 by Admin
06-23-2015 8:43 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
Family arriving for a week on the 27th. I have a list of items I need them to get for the experiments. Some time during that week we should be set to go.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1745 of 1939 (760640)
06-24-2015 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1744 by Faith
06-23-2015 10:00 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
It might be a good idea to list the experiments you plan to perform.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1746 of 1939 (760641)
06-24-2015 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1745 by Admin
06-24-2015 8:13 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I really only have the one in mind for this thread, to see if sand will form an even layer on a sloped surface. I have in mind using plastic or oil-based clay to form the surface inside a container, fill it with water and sprinkle sand as evenly as possible from the top. Probably do it a few times.
But I also want to do the simple angle-of-repose test too,which is the reason Coragyps sent the container in the first place, both dry and wet.
Anything else you'd suggest?

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1747 of 1939 (760705)
06-24-2015 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1746 by Faith
06-24-2015 8:21 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I'd suggest that if any youngsters are coming on that visit that you get them to help. Whatever the outcome, I'll bet that they'd love to help play in wet dirt.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1748 of 1939 (760731)
06-25-2015 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1747 by NoNukes
06-24-2015 8:32 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I've been particularly looking forward to involving my seven-year-old grandson in the project, maybe teaching him some Geology. Yes, I'm sure gramma knows enough to do that, even without offending actual Geologists. Not sure how the three-year-old will behave, maybe have to give him a bucket of sand and put him out on the porch.

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Admin
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Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1749 of 1939 (760742)
06-25-2015 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1746 by Faith
06-24-2015 8:21 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
Faith writes:
I really only have the one in mind for this thread, to see if sand will form an even layer on a sloped surface. I have in mind using plastic or oil-based clay to form the surface inside a container,...
Using clay instead of sand to form the top surface means you can create very steep angles, so it's important that the surface you create from clay is not steeper than the sand's angle-of-repose, so I propose you perform the angle-of-repose experiment first:
  1. On a dry level surface of clay let sand fall on a single spot using a small funnel. Measure the angle of the pile of sand that forms.
  2. On a submerged level surface of clay let sand fall on a single spot on the water using a small funnel. Measure the angle of the pile of sand that forms.
Now perform the sloped-surface experiment:
  1. Create a mild sloped surface of clay inside the container. The slope should not be steep like this, which is steeper than the angle of repose:
    /
        /
       /
      /
     /
    /
    It should be no steeper than this (this is the best I can do using characters, the slope itself should of course be smooth), and you must make sure that it is not steeper than the submerged angle-of-repose:
    _ — ‾
                 _ — ‾
           _ — ‾
     _ — ‾
  2. Once you have a mild sloped surface of clay, add water to the container so it covers the clay to a depth of about an inch at the most shallow point.
  3. Sprinkle sand slowly and evenly across the surface. A colander, strainer or some other kitchen utensil might be helpful, you'll have to play around with it.
Edited by Admin, : Improve the instructions.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1750 of 1939 (760749)
06-25-2015 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1749 by Admin
06-25-2015 8:24 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I know I shouldn't resent your "help" but I do. I know what I'm doing.
The suggestions I had in mind were other experiments I could do.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1751 of 1939 (760798)
06-25-2015 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1750 by Faith
06-25-2015 9:37 AM


Re: sedimentation on slope
Faith writes:
I know I shouldn't resent your "help" but I do. I know what I'm doing.
Apologies if the advice was too elementary, but it is because you *don't* know what you are doing (as demonstrated by the fact that you that actually have to perform these experiments just to demonstrate to yourself the most elementary and intuitively obvious facts of the real world) that I wanted to make sure you that both you and the people you're debating with agree about which experiments are most relevant to the discussion, and how they should be carried out so that both sides can agree about what the outcome means.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1752 of 1939 (760802)
06-25-2015 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1751 by Admin
06-25-2015 5:25 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
What's "elementary" is that the strata were all formed horizontally and this idea that they ever formed on a slope, even if it's possible in some superficial way, is what's crazy.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1753 of 1939 (760804)
06-25-2015 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1752 by Faith
06-25-2015 7:23 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
Faith writes:
What's "elementary" is that the strata were all formed horizontally and this idea that they ever formed on a slope, even if it's possible in some superficial way, is what's crazy.
I'm concerned about your use of the phrase "superficial way." It is important to insure before you perform them that the experiments you're performing are not, in your view, a "superficial way," and that you'll accept the outcome, whatever it may be.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1754 of 1939 (760805)
06-25-2015 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1753 by Admin
06-25-2015 7:40 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
I'll accept that it's possible, of course. And I expect to do a creditable job of it. I'll have photos you know. Anyone else can replicate the experiment anyway, as many have already suggested they might, so why are you so feverishly concerned about how I do it anyway?. Is it possible for you to stop being this interfering busybody you've been for months now?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 1755 by Admin, posted 06-25-2015 9:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1755 of 1939 (760822)
06-25-2015 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1754 by Faith
06-25-2015 7:43 PM


Re: sedimentation on slope
Faith writes:
...so why are you so feverishly concerned about how I do it anyway?. Is it possible for you to stop being this interfering busybody you've been for months now?
I'm trying to insure that this thread in which so many have invested so much can resume discussion of the topic by making sure you're able to assure yourself of the way sediments are really deposited.
It shouldn't even be necessary for anyone to have to do the "sedimentation on a slope" experiment to understand that sediments accumulate on slopes. A simple thought experiment should suffice. Imagine a few grains of sand falling on a submerged sloped surface. How are those grains of sand going to slide down the slope? After all, sand is gritty. Unless the submerged surface is already steeper than the angle of repose, those grains will stay there. If that weren't true there could never be any hills of sand, not in the desert and not under the sea. There wouldn't even be any such thing as an angle of repose - all collections of sand everywhere would be level, and sand would behave like water.
But please, do the experiment anyway.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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