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Author | Topic: The Search for Moderate Islam | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
Oh stop, Modulous. I've answered the question a number of times in this thread already.
Just because it's been a while and you've forgotten everything we've discussed doesn't mean I'm going to repeat my entire position. Check out the following posts; they will more than adequately answer your questions:
Message 99Message 101 Message 118 Message 126 Message 138 Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
President Obama believes that IS is not Islamic:
quote: But IS is Islamic; in fact, very Islamic:
quote: What is the purpose of saying the Islamic State is not Islamic? Is Muhammad really worth lying for? Edited by Jon, : No reason given. Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
What is the purpose of saying the Islamic State is not Islamic? Is Muhammad really worth lying for? People who hold different view points than you do are not lying when they speak those views. I know you are sure that you are right, but at least in your zeal leave open the possibility that you are simply smarter or more likely correct than some other people. Perhaps that's difficult for you? Many people suggest that the Westboro church is not Christian when they do things like picket military funerals that most Christians do not do. Maybe it is not clear that such a limited use of the term Christian is wrong. But I think most people would not take the further step to equate the Westboro Church with Christianity itself even if there are some Bible verses that can be used to justify what the Westboro church does. I take Obama's remarks to be equivalent to saying that Christian Extremists like the Westboro Church may indeed be Christians but they are not Christianity and their remarks should not tar other Christians who don't adopt the same philosophy and means. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Jon Inactive Member |
People who hold different view points than you do are not lying when they speak those views. Fair enough. But it's hard to believe that the President of the U.S. doesn't know better. Especially considering our current president's religious background.
Many people suggest that the Westboro church is not Christian ... And they would be wrong. Even if you want to argue that IS doesn't stand for Islam or that their views do not line up with the views of many Muslims, it is a They are most definitely Islamic. And for the reasons I've cited in this thread, it's clear they are very Islamic. Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Oh stop, Modulous. I've answered the question a number of times in this thread already. Yes you have. I used the qualified 'today' to indicate that it's difficult to know on any given day what your exact position will be as you've wobbled on the line a few times
Message 1 Moderate Islam does not exist
Message 7 Moderate Muslims exist. Moderate Islam does not Message 19 As above Message 25 Peaceful Muslims exist; Islam is their religion. Message 28 No Moderate Islam Message 29 Where is moderate Islam? Message 29 No moderate Muslims (or silent) {a brief interlude of asking what Islam is} Message 116 An acknowledgement of the existence of a proto-moderate Islam but this won't suffice until a certain (unspecified by Jon) degree of agreement exists. Presumably this is why nobody talks about moderate Christians, because of the lack of agreement over theological minutia Message 118 Indicates you won't consider moderate Islam found unless it is 'coherent moderate Islam' {whatever that means} or a 'moderate Muslim community.' That you suppose that moderate Islam is a work in progress. Message 123 you acknowledge moderate Islam would exist, if it was followed. Message 126 you agree that a religion that is practiced by moderate Muslims, which might be called moderate Islam, certain does - but that is useless because it takes time to spread. Message 138 you indicate you appreciate the need to make moderate Islam more appealing than extreme Islam, though you have adopted a tentative approach to its existence Message 196 the thing that moderate Muslims follow is not moderate Islam Message 297 maybe the Ahmadiyya could be moderate and presumably 'coherent' enough to qualify. Message 328 Moderate Islam has not been presented to me {Posts complaining about various examples of liberal sins, both the things that offend liberal values and liberals themselves sinning in the media etc} {Sunni/Shia, the West's impact, resolutions moving forwards and Jon declaring he doesn't want to talk about this subject} My best guess is that you are still denying the existence of moderate Islam. This is why I said "Sometimes it feels like you are denying it entirely. At other times you say it isn't prominent enough. ". The only way these go hand in hand is if you are saying it doesn't exist. It is possible to argue it exists but isn't prominent enough or that it does not exist AND therefore is not prominent enough. Hence why I asked for clarity. Which apparently I didn't get by asking.
Just because it's been a while and you've forgotten everything we've discussed doesn't mean I'm going to repeat my entire position. I haven't forgotten, Jon. When I ask what your opinion TODAY is, my memory of your opinions of yesterdays is not something that should be called into question. Islam is a religion. This is just an abstract collection of ideas that we tie together as a single entity called Islam as a useful labelling tool. Early observers thought they were hearing a reformed Judaism, if my memory serves. It's actual nature is not relevant. You can't point at something and say 'that is Islam'. It's a thing that exists physically no more than Socialism or anarcho-feudalism is. Like with my religious ideas, there are some texts which are variously given importance and interpreted for modern day application depending on sect/school/personal opinion. Whether it is an extreme religion or a moderate one entirely depends on the believer. Therefore moderate Islam isn't something that is presented. It is the ideas that exist in the minds of the moderate believers. There are texts about moderate Islam, they sell in the millions. There have been authors of books on moderate Islam in governmental positions in the near east region (Egpyt springs to mind), there are mothers who teach their kids not to fight other people, to be kind to the poor and so on..... This is moderate Islam as much as it can exist. Moderate people saying and writing and doing moderate things, while believing the significant tenets of Islam. I was certainly never told to read a book on moderate Christianity to become one. I was just raised that way. Right now, a lot of kids are being raised in an extremist Islam. I thought it might be interesting to discuss why that happened, and how we might interrupt this cycle. You seem to have ceased discussing moderate Islam and just devolved in Coyote-esque 'hey look at this outrageous thing' trolling. Let me know if you want to continue, to unambiguously summarize your current position regarding moderate Islam and - if you require more to be persuaded that it exists could you explain what else you need?
Check out the following posts; they will more than adequately answer your questions: I mean, I'm pretty sure we've established that moderate Islam exists, that it would be nice if there was more of it. I thought discussing 'what next' might be interesting, but if we really are stuck with you at the position you were in message 1 - I don't think I have the endurance to get there. I'll simply conclude that you started by looking and finding nothing. You've been presented with millions of practitioners practicing it, not all in agreement about all things, and maybe too many are not liberal enough for Jon's tastes but moderate. So I guess, whatever you are thinking of may not exist. I can't say to be honest. Moderate Islam is what moderate Muslims believe. You acknowledge the latter, the former comes along by definition. If you still feel you have nothing, then I don't know what you are looking for and I wish you the best of luck.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
What is the purpose of saying the Islamic State is not Islamic? America is fucking ludicriously powerful.They have big guns. They have historically developed the reputation for zealously charging at the enemy crying out racial slurs and raping and murdering along the way. The President, and commander in chief of one of the most well funded military machines in all of history, wanted to make it clear to the billions of Muslims in the world that he agrees with them that this is not Islam. That the guy with more nuclear weapons than anybody will ever need is perfectly aware that this is not a case of Islamic sand-niggers that need to be put down without care of collateral damage. The President is agreeing with the majority of the Muslim world who regard the organisation as un-Islamic. That this is not a Holy War. This is not the largest and richest Christian nation attacking Islam, but instead a secular nation tackling a religious perversion. As the spokesperson for America throughout the world I think this is an important thing to make clear. Imagine a violent Jewish sect emerging within a larger Jewish community in a Muslim dominated country. What would you regard as the moderate and Presidential response to the violent sect's violence? 1. "They aren't Jews, who we know are a decent people. They are criminals and evil people masquerading under Jewish legalism to rationalize their wicked designs and convince others to join them. We will make sure we get the bastards." 2. "It's the Jews - get them!"
Is Muhammad really worth lying for? If you think that statement was made for Muhammed's benefit, you really are a terrific idiot. Why the hell would anybody complain that their President was being too diplomatic in this situation? Let's assume that calling it a lie is reasonable.... Why are you complaining about the benevolent lie of a Christian politician in a thread about the search for moderate Islam?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Why are you complaining about the benevolent lie of a Christian politician in a thread about the search for moderate Islam?
Hate and prejudice?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Why are you complaining about the benevolent lie of a Christian politician in a thread about the search for moderate Islam? Because it is the same sort of lie that has shown up in the sources cited by those in this thread who insist on obfuscation and ignoring evidence.Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
You seem to have ceased discussing moderate Islam and just devolved in Coyote-esque 'hey look at this outrageous thing' trolling. I'm just posting relevant links as I come across them.
... if you require more to be persuaded that it exists could you explain what else you need? We've been over this before. You gave some links to moderate/liberal Muslims. I talked about cookies. And we got nowhere. Do you have anything different that you think will change the outcome this time around? Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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Because it is the same sort of lie that has shown up in the sources cited by those in this thread who insist on obfuscation and ignoring evidence. It is very frustrating to talk with someone who doesn't address the evidence and rigidly holds onto their own ideal of what Islam is. Still I don't see why posting a 'lie' told by one person is useful in this topic which is about searching for moderate Islam. Could you explain? Of course not, why would I expect you to? When a media voice asserts Islam is to blame for violence, this is to be accepted as gospel apparently. When a media voice asserts that most Muslims want peace and that Islam is not intrinsically a religion of rampant rape, pillaging and murder - they are abhorrent liars. I get it - but neither of these things helps us to find whatever it is you're looking for so why must you and Coyote insist on doing it?
I'm just posting relevant links as I come across them. While pointedly avoiding explaining why you think they are relevant. Please please please explain what a news report summarizing the history of bad blood between two groups is relevant to the discussion regarding the ontology of a different type of group even if you think the reporting is not honest, which you haven't established. And a diplomat, being diplomatic? I have no idea how that helps determine whether moderate Islam exists. It's not like I can rely on you to tell me either. I can try writing lots of words to inspire you to talk, I can politely ask, I can passive-aggressively needle you. Nothing seems to be effective - if you don't have the time for this discussion, wait until you do.
You gave some links to moderate/liberal Muslims. Yes, apparently you still reject the existence of moderate Islam even as I give you the only evidence it is possible to give regarding it! "Where is belief system X??'"Here are some holders of belief system X' 'But I want a treatise of ancient texts, summarised in thematic analysis form, and attested to by millions of Muslims unambiguously without any disagreements between them. All in English (preferably not translated). If you do that, I have a few other requirements - we'll get to them' '????' I talked about cookies. And we got nowhere. You made an awkward simile, I extended it to explain how your perspective was too short term, this confused you:
quote: quote: quote: You never responded to that point so blame yourself if we didn't get anywhere. Feel free to pick up on the fact that all religions, philosophies, cultures, politics, and language are human creations that change over time and tell me that we should be expecting a 'complete' English or Islam or Socialism or Buddhism. I think they are fictional and meaningless constructs, if you think a 'complete' version of any of these exist please expand on this notion further. By your own standards, it seems, extremist Islam doesn't exist: There are still extremist scholars issuing fatwa so clearly it is still a product that is baking, right? But on the other hand - there is a complete religious belief already there, despite someone working on another 'batch' both regarding the moderates and extremists. There were moderate Muslims in the 19th Century - some of today's moderates still read their books, so yes I can see no other way of regarding it other than as a complete religious position. As advanced theologically as Mormonism is, if not more so. It exists, as all beliefs do, in the minds of believers. You can access this, in part, through reading their books and listening to them speak. You might need to learn a few additional languages as almost everything that is written or spoken doesn't get translated into English. I have presented their books, their public declarations of peace, shown videos of them speaking and given you some of their trite idioms and catchy verses. The only thing I haven't done is formally written (or assessed someone else's formal writing) a summary of this whole thing. Which is hardly something you can expect of me, or anyone here. Could you explain which of your reasonable demands for evidence I have missed, and explain why it is required? Thank you.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Still I don't see why posting a 'lie' told by one person is useful in this topic which is about searching for moderate Islam. Could you explain? What does it matter? It's been posted. If you don't find it relevant, don't respond to it.
When a media voice asserts Islam is to blame for violence What media voice?
Nothing seems to be effective - if you don't have the time for this discussion, wait until you do. What discussion? You might notice that the links I've been posting have not been in response to anyone.
You never responded to that point so blame yourself if we didn't get anywhere. Of course I did:
quote: Could you explain which of your reasonable demands for evidence I have missed, and explain why it is required? Thank you. You haven't missed anything. We just don't agree.Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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What does it matter? It's been posted. If you don't find it relevant, don't respond to it. Take the same advice Mr, This isn't a thread about Christianity.
What media voice? The ones in the OP for example.
if you don't have the time for this discussion, wait until you do. What discussion? You might notice that the links I've been posting have not been in response to anyone. This is a discussion forum. If you don't have the time to have a discussion on a discussion forum then you don't have to. Post your complaints about Obama on your blog, or write about them in your journal if you aren't looking for a discussion at all!
Of course I did:
quote: That's addressing the analogy, not the thing the analogy was about, which is the topic of our discussion. You think that deciding to not continue arguing about an analogy moves that part of the discussion forwards? You assert that moderate Islam does not exist because it is still being created and so has not been created, and reached its final form. I point out that no religion reaches its final form any more than a language does. Therefore, this undermines your argument that moderate Islam does not exist on the grounds people are still working on it. People are working on all extant religions, I'd wager. Sometimes not deliberately. Just like languages. Thus: Moderate Islam is something that some people believe in. Therefore it exists as much as any religion can be said to whether or not scholars are still writing about it. If anything, scholars writing about it, prove that it exists as an idea, which is all a religion can exist as. So - how do you respond to the notion that your 'incomplete' argument fails and we're left still with a religion that some people believe in which is Islamic and moderate. What should we call this moderate and Islamic religion?
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