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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 571 of 1053 (753487)
03-20-2015 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 570 by dwise1
03-20-2015 10:08 AM


Re: Questioning the Flood
dwise1 writes:
That led him to the large room that was filled with such journals, which he started to read. Including detailed articles on fossils that "creation science" had taught him did not exist and could not exist
YES!!
They have such a hard time breaking free of the notion that science is just like religion where someone studies as single book (or doesn't) and then makes proclamations.
JB

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 572 of 1053 (753516)
03-20-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by dwise1
03-20-2015 10:08 AM


Re: Questioning the Flood
He told his story of what had caused him to switch.
You guys might also like Glenn Morton's story, "Why I left young earth creationism". Glenn was trained in geophysics by YECs, went into the petroleum industry, and had to deal with the fact that the geologic evidence did not fit with his YEC training.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 573 of 1053 (753521)
03-20-2015 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by ThinAirDesigns
03-19-2015 5:31 PM


The gullible gallup one step at a time
... he handed me a paper called "Dissecting Darwinism" by Joseph A. Kuhn. I told him I would look at it and get back to him. ...
Ask him which ONE →(1)← one argument he finds the most convincing: focus on that, with "we can get to the others once we have resolve this one" ... and if he can't decide then say you'll take the first one first.
That is usually a good way to get them to started thinking about the support (or lack of it) ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 574 of 1053 (753540)
03-20-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by kbertsche
03-20-2015 12:00 PM


Re: Questioning the Flood
kbertsche writes:
You guys might also like Glenn Morton's story
I had read and enjoyed that article along with his 'demon' article. I wish I had been able to read more of Morton's writings - I came to this search after he had apparently taken down much of his published material. Sad for me.
JB

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 Message 572 by kbertsche, posted 03-20-2015 12:00 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by kbertsche, posted 03-20-2015 3:42 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 575 of 1053 (753541)
03-20-2015 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by RAZD
03-20-2015 12:15 PM


Re: The gullible gallup one step at a time
RAZD writes:
Ask him which ONE →(1)← one argument he finds the most convincing:
This is excellent advice.
Thanks
JB

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 576 of 1053 (753563)
03-20-2015 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by ThinAirDesigns
03-20-2015 9:41 AM


What do we mean by "because it works"
The consilience/convergence of evidence -- somehow I have to figure out how that principle can be unleashed in their minds.
Dawkins answers the question about how we know that evidence is positive for science ... ie what is the evidence that evidence is of value ... and he answers "because it (science) works" and then listed a number of things that "work" -- airplanes, medicine, etc.
I would clarify this a little by saying it is reproducible -- that when you design a plane it has to be tested to make sure it operates within design parameters (and new designs need to be modified when necessary to meet those parameters to be a successful design) ... but the acid test is that the design can be reproduced and the reproductions will fly as well as the original.
Likewise medicine can be reproduced and cure people the same as the original medicine.
Reproducible results is a key component to science and is part of the review process of testing new hypothesis.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(2)
Message 577 of 1053 (753570)
03-20-2015 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by ThinAirDesigns
03-20-2015 1:20 PM


Re: Questioning the Flood
I had read and enjoyed that article along with his 'demon' article. I wish I had been able to read more of Morton's writings - I came to this search after he had apparently taken down much of his published material. Sad for me.
Yes, Glenn took his pages down in early 2013. He is tired of the OEC-YEC debate. For the past few years he has been much more interested in the global warming debate. Glenn rejects anthropogenic global warming and is convinced that mainstream science is being used to club dissenters over the head and force them into conformity. He saw his creationist pages being used the same way against YECs, and didn't like this. (Though Glenn is firmly convinced that YEC is wrong, he is a libertarian Texan and believes that parents should have the right to indoctrinate their kids with falsehoods like YEC if they wish.)
Glenn's pages were preserved for awhile on another site, but it no longer seems to work: http://erv-faq-for-creationists.wikispaces.com/...spageshome
But you can always use the Internet Archive Wayback Machine to find his old pages, if you wish.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-20-2015 1:20 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-20-2015 4:26 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 578 of 1053 (753573)
03-20-2015 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by kbertsche
03-20-2015 3:42 PM


Re: Questioning the Flood
kbertsche writes:
But you can always use the Internet Archive Wayback Machine to find his old pages, if you wish.
Oh wow -- you would have thought that being from the Silicon Valley I would have known about that Wayback Machine, but no.
I'm going to go save me some pages.
THANKS
JB

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 579 of 1053 (753581)
03-20-2015 7:43 PM


Morton pages
Thanks to kbertsche and the Wayback Machine, I have all(?) of Morton's pages. There's about 150 pages and around 2,000 associated files (total ~50mb).
Anyone who would like a zipped file, Pm me.
As a side note, after spending a bit of time on Glenn's climate blog, I will be carefully researching Morton's OE work if/when I use it. I'm not entirely impressed with his commitment to facts and good science after reading it and hope his OE approach wasn't the same (but fear it could be). I tend to be cautious and research sources before relying on them so I'll stick with that again here. Skepticism of any source has served me well in my life.
JB

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 580 of 1053 (753596)
03-20-2015 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by ThinAirDesigns
03-20-2015 7:43 PM


Re: Morton pages
Morton made a brief appearance (44 messages) back in 2007.
EvC Forum: grmorton Topic Index
Moose

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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(3)
Message 581 of 1053 (753620)
03-21-2015 12:58 AM


Flood sermon
Fairly typical outcome I guess.
Ecological zonation and ability to flee the Flood accounts for the fossil record; most fossils rapidly buried; sudden appearance of life in the Cambrian with no Pre-Cambrian fossils; C14 in coal and diamonds; soft tissues in dino bones;one recent Ice Age; Neanderthal fossils post Flood(!); low sea levels and vegetation rafts allowed post-Flood dispersal.
I spoke to him privately afterwards. I mentioned how ice cores and deep sea and land cores show similar climate variations, how C14 is calibrated by dendrochronology and Lake Suigetsu, and sea-mount chains verify RMD.
However it is all a matter of interpretation, and soft tissue in dino bones, and the fact that only post-Flood conditions can cause ice ages show it is all recent.
He has said he will look up sea-mounts and Suigetsu.

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 582 of 1053 (753638)
03-21-2015 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Pollux
03-21-2015 12:58 AM


Re: Flood sermon
Pollux writes:
Ecological zonation and ability to flee the Flood accounts for the fossil record
Do you think that the speaker understands just how clearly sorted the fossil record actually is? In other words, is he claiming that ecological zonation and mobility sorts perfectly or does he believe that the fossil record is jumbled in a way that allows for them?
sudden appearance of life in the Cambrian with no Pre-Cambrian fossils;
Is his position that those fossils found in pre-cambrian layers are a hoax, or does he simply annex the pre-cambrian layers into the cambrian layers to win the word game or is he just not looking at the evidence? (not sure of his education/experience level)
C14 in coal and diamonds; soft tissues in dino bones
A combination of ignorance and lies gets us there - all old hat.
low sea levels and vegetation rafts allowed post-Flood dispersal.
Not completely following here, but I'm guessing you're referring to species dispersal? In other words, the two koalas, two kangaroos, etc. hopped out of the ark, onto a raft and punched their ticket to Australia?
I apologize if you've told us already, but was this some local guy giving the speech or some 'professional' who has a website or something? Would be interested to know more about his positions if he has a site.
Thanks for the update.
JB

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 583 of 1053 (753655)
03-21-2015 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by Pollux
03-21-2015 12:58 AM


Re: Flood sermon
Fairly typical outcome I guess.
Not typical. It sounds like you had a real 'Creation Scientist' doing the presentation. There simply aren't that many of those guys around.
Ecological zonation and ability to flee the Flood accounts for the fossil record; most fossils rapidly buried;
Sure it does. When there is nobody there to point out the counter examples.
low sea levels and vegetation rafts allowed post-Flood dispersal.
That's right. Kangaroos hopped all the way from the middle east to Australia without any food. How long did that take? And how did they get to the ark in the first place?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 584 of 1053 (753664)
03-21-2015 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by Pollux
03-21-2015 12:58 AM


Re: Flood sermon
and the fact that only post-Flood conditions can cause ice ages show it is all recent.
How does this work?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 585 of 1053 (753667)
03-21-2015 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 583 by NoNukes
03-21-2015 1:22 PM


Re: Flood sermon
That's right. Kangaroos hopped all the way from the middle east to Australia without any food. How long did that take? ...
Kangaroos are fast and eat a variety of vegetation.
Koalas are slow, are not great swimmers and only eat eucalyptus leaves.
And why did no marsupials stay in the middle east?
inquiring minds want to know ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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