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Author Topic:   New Geocentrist Blunder
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 32 of 53 (749147)
02-02-2015 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
02-01-2015 9:08 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Much like the Catholic Church had explained ALL religious truth, and were unquestionable in their proclamation of that truth, Aristotle was regarded as the absolute and final authority on the truth of all physical matters. Of course, had anything that Aristotle taught about the physical world conflicted with the Catholic teaching of the Bible, they would have rejected it. Instead, Aristotle's ideas fit well within the framework of the Bible.
So yes, the Catholic Church embraced Aristotle, but it was the absolute, unquestionable authority that was the issue, not the association itself. Sound familiar?
It was really Aristotle that inspired the Roman Church and was the cause of the persecution of Galileo, not the Bible, although I'm sure they tried to put it all together as if the Bible said the same thing, which it doesn't.
I would be interested to see the evidence from the Bible for a heliocentric model of the universe. I say a straight-forward, simple reading of the Bible puts it sharply at odds with Copernicus and Galileo's discoveries. There are those who argue that it was Copernicus and not Darwin who began the descent of modern man into accepting evidence external from the Bible over the Biblical revelation itself.
Perhaps you could build a case for the Bible teaching heliocentricism as opposed to geocentricism?
Perhaps you could debunk the claim that ancient Hebrew cosmology looked something like the image below?
The image includes references to pertinent scriptures to get you started.
Thanks,
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 02-01-2015 9:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 1:58 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 34 of 53 (749155)
02-02-2015 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
02-02-2015 1:58 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
I don't think there is Biblical evidence for either a geocentric or heliocentric universe.
I completely agree, but I am not a Biblical-literalist / inerrantist.
The picture you post basically gives the natural understanding of how things look from earth
Not exactly. It is a model of cosmology based on ancient Hebrew writings. So it's not an image of how things look from the ground, but how the ancient Hebrews described the cosmos based on their worldview.
but doesn't provide any case for a geocentric universe as such
Sure it does. The earth is stationary and the entire cosmos moves around in the "firmament." That IS geocentric.
What Galileo said doesn't contradict the way things look from earth anyway,
But it does contradict specific statements from the Bible. I didn't want to make this another discussion of how the Bible is in error, so I thought it could be approached slightly different. I thought maybe you could support the case that the Bible DOES support heliocentricism without having to resort to evidence from outside the Bible.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 1:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 3:03 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 41 of 53 (749199)
02-02-2015 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
02-02-2015 3:01 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
I don't think that anyone who subscribes to geocentricism is going to be concerned about fine-tuning. In fact, many see this fine-tuning as evidence that the universe was created by God in a miraculous way (read that: in the way they believe it was done). So I'm not sure that going from fine-tuning in the nth degree to fine-tuning in the (n*n)th degree is going to make any difference.
I think an easier way to explain the problem is how a Ptolemaic model cannot be explain by the forces and theories we can observe and verify. For instance, I am sure you have seen the orbits of the planets in a geocentric model that look like they have been drawn with a Spirograph. There is no way that gravity, as we know it and understand it could explain orbits like those. So, from the perspective of the earth the orbits could be following those crazy paths, and it would match our observations. However, we would have to completely discard our understanding of gravity along with several other observable and verifiable phenomenon such as parallax, conservation of momentum, angular momentum, etc.
Interestingly, one could also imagine an earth that was created a mere 6,000 years ago that looks just like it does today. But in the same way, the processes we know and observe could never explain that model. Mutation, adaptation, plate tectonics, and many more, would need to be completely revised and probably even scraped to make sense of a world that functioned in that way.
Of course, anyone who subscribes to geocentricism would not be swayed by those arguments either
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2015 3:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2015 9:50 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 43 of 53 (749202)
02-02-2015 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
02-02-2015 3:59 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
The Ptolemaic system is the geocentric model that was developed by Claudius Ptolemaeus. It was pretty much the standard model of the cosmos for about 1,500 years.
Making the Biblical decriptions into a scientific claim is the problem
Yes, I agree. But that is exactly what is being done with youth earth creationist models.
because it's only a descriptive system of how things look from Earth, and shouldn't become an obstacle to changing to a heliocentric perspective.
But, the objection is that a simple, literal reading of the Bible gives an image of a geocentric model and not heliocentric. The change in models came from evidence that was gather externally from the Bible, not from the Biblical passages themselves. In this way it is no different than evolutionary models supplanting 6-day creation models. An understanding of the physical world that had a long standing, well established acceptance by the orthodox religious institution (which you value very highly) was rejected in favor of scientific discoveries (which you believe are fraught with uncertainties).
It is just like our discussion about the "windows of heaven" we had some time ago. Why consider the term "windows of heaven" to be understood as figurative when it is in the midst of a whole bunch of stuff that is meant to be taken literally? Is it because we know from evidence external to the Bible that there is no such thing as "windows of heaven?"
From a literalistic, inerrant perspective, the Bible DOES have a clear position on geocentricism. So, why are you willing to abandon that clear Biblical teaching for the fallacies of scientific discovery?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVqT7-XZYTY
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/geocentr.htm
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 3:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 10:52 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 49 of 53 (749351)
02-03-2015 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by JonF
02-03-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
How about these Protestant giants?
quote:
People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This man wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.--Martin Luther, Table Talk
quote:
"Scripture simply says that the moon, the sun, and the stars were placed in the firmament of the heaven, below and above which heaven are the waters . . . . We Christians must be different . . . in the way we think about the causes of things. And if some are beyond our comprehension like those before us concerning the waters above the heavens, we must believe them rather than wickedly deny them or presumptuously interpret them in conformity with our understanding."--Martin Luther, Luther's Works. Vol. 1. Lectures on Genesis, ed. Janoslaw Pelikan, Concordia Pub. House, St. Louis, Missouri, 1958, pp. 30, 42, 43.
quote:
Those who assert that 'the earth moves and turns'...[are] motivated by 'a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding;' possessed by the devil, they aimed 'to pervert the order of nature.'--John Calvin, sermon no. 8 on 1st Corinthians, 677, cited in John Calvin: A Sixteenth Century Portrait by William J. Bouwsma (Oxford Univ. Press, 1988), A. 72
quote:
The heavens revolve daily, and, immense as is their fabric, and inconceivable the rapidity of their revolutions, we experience no concussion -- no disturbance in the harmony of their motion. The sun, though varying its course every diurnal revolution, returns annually to the same point. The planets, in all their wandering, maintain their respective positions. How could the earth hang suspended in the air were it not upheld by God's hand? (Job 26:7) By what means could it [the earth] maintain itself unmoved, while the heavens above are in constant rapid motion, did not its Divine Maker fix and establish it? Accordingly the particle, ape, denoting emphasis, is introduced -- YEA, he hath established it--John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of Psalms, Psalm 93, verse 1, trans., James Anderson (Eerdman's, 1949), Vol. 4, p. 7
John Calvin couldn't possibly be wrong about this could he?
How about Gerardus Bouw, a Baptist.
quote:
"I would not be a geocentrist if it were not for the Scriptures... The only way we can know for certain whether or not geocentricity is true would be to leave the universe, take a look around outside the universe, and then come back in to tell us what is really happening in that larger scope. Since God is infinitely greater than the universe, and so extends beyond the universe, what God says must present the ultimate case . . . . God, in His Word, consistently teaches geocentricity."
Source: Here
Actually a pretty good blog. Has some of the same ideas that I tried to get across, but uses more words.
quote:
For instance, the creationist organization, Answers in Genesis, dismisses geocentrism with several arguments including the observation that the question of the earth’s physical position is less important than the spiritual reality of God's love for his people. ... Bouw points out that Answers in Genesis is not being consistent, You can’t say that one part of the Bible is more credible than another part simply because you feel uncomfortable with what it says.
quote:
How can Young-Earth creationists claim the authority of "God's plain speech" for how THEY interpret what God uses His powers for, but geocentrists must abandon theirs?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by JonF, posted 02-03-2015 5:04 PM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 02-13-2015 12:21 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 50 of 53 (749354)
02-03-2015 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
02-02-2015 10:52 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
I just don't see how it fits into a discussion of the Bible's geocentric views
Dr A is using the two ideas interchangeably. Technically, the Biblical position is not Ptolemaic, but its still the basic idea that the earth is stationary and the rest of the universe is what is moving.
which aren't a scientific system, just a description of what is observed of the sky from Earth.
Well, that's your opinion, sure. But you haven't defended it with any Biblical support. All you have is fallible human science and personal opinion.
The image you posted, on the other hand, reflects an interpretation of the heavens as even we see them now from Earth.
Not really. It relies on a lot of assumptions of things we never observe. Like - pillars, water under the earth, Sheol, etc.
I'm not up to looking at the links, is there anything there I really need to see?
The video is actually kind of interesting, if you can get past the guys ultra-boring voice.
The Jesus-Is-Lord link (a site that you previously gave very high marks to) outlines the scientific and Biblical case for geocentricism. Some excerpts:
quote:
***Dear Reader, do you believe EVERYTHING the Bible says?
quote:
This one is a showstopper. It comes from Malachi 4 the last chapter of the Old Testament. It would be about 400 years before God spoke to Israel through John the Baptist. Malachi 4:2
"But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness ARISE with healing in his wings..."
Look at this again. Notice how "Sun" has a capital "S". This obviously refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. HE DID ARISE with healing in his wings. Notice how it does not say "Son", it says, "Sun". If the "sun" DOES NOT rise, does this mean that THE SON did not rise? HE DID RISE AND SO DOES SUN. IT IS NO ILLUSION. IT IS EXACTLY ACCORDING TO WHAT YOUR OWN EYEBALLS SEE EVERYDAY YOU LOOK OUTSIDE.
quote:
There is a lot of interesting information concerned with the false science associated with the heliocentric model... Just like with evolution, there are many things that cannot be explained with the heliocentric model.
quote:
My friends, I know this is a radical concept but don't believe everything science tells you. They make a liar out of God! With the Copernican revolution** all of a sudden not only did the Bible lose its authority in science but in morals and other areas as well. It was, and is, looked upon as unreliable.
** this sentence would work equally as well if you substitute Darwinian for Copernican.
Good stuff, good stuff. How can you NOT be a geocentrist??
That's about the extent of my willingness to entertain geocentrism.
So you don't believe EVERYTHING the Bible says. Hmmm.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 10:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:52 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
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