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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(4)
Message 206 of 1309 (723144)
03-27-2014 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
03-27-2014 2:57 AM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
So, sure, if we are allowed to live peaceably we will live peaceably. But if society insists that we do things that violate our Biblical understanding, we'll have to take whatever punishment society requires of us.
Society insists we, which means you, treat all members of this community with at least a minimum level of respect. That means stopping the hate rhetoric and stopping the push to dictate your creeds in the schools and through government onto the rest of a people that resist your dictatorship and do not believe as you do.
I know that this is hard for christians. For so many centuries you have been the masters of thought control ruling every facet of society as you deemed desirable. You have come to expect to exercise this power over all peoples and organs of society as your god given right destroying all opposition in the most brutal ways. Those days are no longer.
Secular society (which does not mean a non- or anti-religious society, but where hindu, jew, moslem, atheist, christian, peagan and all others share equally and come to joint accommodation) has determined minimum standards of conduct in the marketplace and in public in general. This now replaces your vaunted christian theocracy. Because of mainly christian opposition some classes of people must be declared protected by law in order for them to attain their minimum rights in society. Over vehement christian opposition, often violent, homosexuals are now becoming a class requiring such protections of the law.
We, The People, are making this determination as is our right.
In your churches and homes your bigotry is free to flourish. In public business, in public education, in popular governance, though you can speak it, write it and show it on signs, direct actions against others by your bigotry are no longer acceptable.
I would think that for a christian your standard of conduct would be far above the social minimum. No "you're going to burn in hell for eternity", no "I won't serve you because you're a queer" and no trying to brow beat, scare and threaten people into conversion. I thought leading by love, tolerance and respect, leading by example, were supposed to be the christian things to do. For a lot of christian cults this is, apparently, not the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 2:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 7:44 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 221 by Larni, posted 03-27-2014 1:55 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(4)
Message 225 of 1309 (723201)
03-27-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
03-27-2014 7:44 AM


Philosopher Twit - Redundant?
If you've got a huge scimitar at my neck and tell me I won't lose my head if I just say that homosexuality isn't a sin and it's right for gays to marry I'll forfeit my head.
Even though I find your philosophy lacking I would never take your head. I respect your intellect, if not your philosophy, and would not deprive this world of your views. You are very much an example of what our species has yet to overcome.
And, in case you missed it (on purpose) you can label people different from you as sinners and evil all you want. You can shout it from the street corner and decry it on the TV, whatever trips your trigger. What you may not do anymore is actively interfere with peoples rights. Further, you may not overstep those bounds society places on bigoted conduct in the marketplace. This is no longer your society but is all of ours.
In my opinion no Christian here has expressed the slightest disrespect to homosexuals.
Of course. You are blind to the fact that depriving a class of people those rights and privileges enjoyed freely by you and those of whom you approve is the very height of bigotry and disrespect, not just toward your targeted class but toward the entirety of the human condition.
Others have responded to your other points. No need to add more of the same.
But, I must admit to not having read the entirety of Tocqueville's tome which you have cited in this forum many times before. You like him. He and I parted ways many decades ago. It has been so long I cannot remember the details of those discussions in the student union but iirc they centered around Tocqueville's views on equality and liberty being different and some shit about inequality being good for a society. All I have left is my emotional remembrance of Tocqueville as a philosophical ass. Pretty much in keeping with my views on all philosophers. I do remember being in the minority with that view so I guess nothing much has changed. Still having no respect for philosophy as being good for anything but mental masturbation I don't think, regardless of any "history" expressed, I will revisit that rubbish. We all have our foibles.
My my, you do love YOUR rhetoric, don't you?
Pretty good, isn't it? I do love my communications abilities. Not always, to be sure, but in most cases my penned articulations leave little room to question my intent. I am just so damn good.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 7:44 AM Faith has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 226 of 1309 (723242)
03-28-2014 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Larni
03-27-2014 1:55 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Where on Earth did you get this idea?
Just something I read in a book somewhere once. The book must have been wrong.
The source of all our knowledge about god's character (the Bible) tells us He wants the gays all dead.
That was the jewish side of the book where stoning, killing and bloody death where pretty much the answers to everything. The other side seemed to be more, shall we say, enlightened. Again, I guess the book was wrong.
Your point about xians now living in a world where their preferences are kowtowed to being over must really bother them.
What seems to bother them most is that instead of just burning you like they want they now have to go through the long hard slog of getting bills through a legislature. And even then the outcome is not as satisfying as a good fire.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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 Message 221 by Larni, posted 03-27-2014 1:55 PM Larni has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1235 of 1309 (748232)
01-23-2015 6:08 PM


The artwork and words on a cake are speech covered by the First Amendment. You cannot force someone to speak against their will or their conscience.
In the gay-cake scenarios the bakers were refusing to do business with someone because they were gay. They had the right to refuse to decorate the cake with two grooms, maybe, but a flat refusal of service to any class is forbidden.
In the bigot-cake scenario the service is not refused. The offensive nature of the speech on the cake, which no one can force the baker to speak, was accommodated in what seems to me to be a reasonable way.
I cannot imagine any but the most blatantly biased and bigoted of arbiters allowing this complaint to proceed.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1236 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 9:31 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1247 of 1309 (748310)
01-24-2015 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1245 by Faith
01-24-2015 1:09 PM


By Definition
... it's YOUR definition that turns us into bigots and gets our businesses closed.
Very good, Faith. You are absolutely correct.
We, I, this Secular American Society, define some of the tenets of your christianity as bigoted because they are abhorrent to humanity and bigoted proprietors should go out of business. Not just "go" out of business but be forced out of business by law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1245 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 1:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1248 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 2:34 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1251 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 3:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1253 of 1309 (748323)
01-24-2015 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1248 by Faith
01-24-2015 2:34 PM


Re: By Definition
Enjoy your brave new world, it isn't going to last long.
Unfortunately, M'lady, you are probably right about that, too. Though not for the reasons you think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1248 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 2:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1254 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 5:42 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1255 of 1309 (748328)
01-24-2015 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1251 by Faith
01-24-2015 3:59 PM


Business Sense
Or if they did refuse to serve a gay wedding we'd never hear about it and nothing legal would ever come of it.
Now right there is a major indicator of attitude and business smarts.
Christians believe they own this nation and can do pretty much anything they want, within reason. So some good Christian gal hangs out her shingle and advertises she does wedding cakes. Then she gets herself into trouble because she really didn’t mean she does wedding cakes for everybody, just everybody except them over there and these ones over here.
The Muslims recognize they do not run this place and they also know business practices soooo much better than do the Christians. So some good Muslim gal hangs out her shingle and advertises that she does Muslim wedding cakes in a number of classic Islamic motifs with various sura of the Quran iced in. She states right in her ads, which are, of course, in Arabic, that she specializes in Islamic wedding cake design. Now should some Christian or some gay come along and inquire about a wedding cake she can say Sure. And which sura do you want written? If they say no, they want a Christian design or a secular motif then our Muslim baker can rightfully and legally refuse since these are not within her advertised specialty. She can refuse to perform a service that is not a part of her business and her business specializes exclusively in Muslim wedding cakes. And she does pita on Wednesdays.
Edited by AZPaul3, : forgot opening reference. sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1251 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 3:59 PM Faith has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1259 of 1309 (748343)
01-24-2015 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1254 by Faith
01-24-2015 5:42 PM


Re: Bet?
...would you like to bet $100 on that? I'd have to push the date up to 2020...
$100? That won't be worth much in 2020. And with my previous life styles taking their toll I probably won't be around to collect.
Let's just make a bet for pride.
My end of the world scenario end of the world is over reaching, end of the humans scenario is better is us.
I can see the future. Actually quite a few of us can if you look in the right ways. Anyway, my end of the humans scenario will take about 500 years to finally fulfill but most of the damage, most of the human destruction, will take place in the next 200 years give or take. Everything your bible calls for — plague, pestilence, disease, war, starvation, unspeakable barbarity will all be present. The demise of easy energy, the desertification of some great lands, the submerging of others, massive crop failures the world over, food riots, revolt, tyranny and yet more war.
What few remain will be incapable of dealing with the world the way we will leave it. They will not be able to continue to compensate for the continued heating, the destruction of lands, the slaughter of ecosystems. Slowly, each new generation of scattered clans will get smaller and smaller.
You’ll be happy to know that guns remain as coveted assets right up to the last human, a young girl, succumbs to the heated poisoned world, the last of her kind.
Humans will be gone. Extinct.
The good news, of course, is that as the humans come to an end so does your god.
Disclaimer: My crystal ball is actually made of an acrylic polymer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1254 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 5:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1261 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 10:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1263 of 1309 (748348)
01-24-2015 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1261 by Faith
01-24-2015 10:37 PM


Re: Bet?
OK, a pride bet then but I'm no longer sure what we're betting on.
Your god will die in my scenario before I die in his.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1261 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 10:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1264 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:48 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

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