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Author Topic:   A measured look at a difficult situation
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 181 of 289 (748219)
01-23-2015 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
01-23-2015 3:58 PM


It was the Irish, not the Vatican, who would have done the deeds that were being punished.
I refuse to get into your assertion that Cromwell was not legitimate, as I believe I said. He went to quell a rebellion which was nothing but outright murder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 3:58 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 4:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 182 of 289 (748222)
01-23-2015 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
01-23-2015 4:34 PM


Faith writes:
refuse to get into your assertion that Cromwell was not legitimate, as I believe I said. He went to quell a rebellion which was nothing but outright murder.
So, you also side with Great Britain coming to quell a rebellion in the United States in 1812?

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 4:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 4:56 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 289 (748225)
01-23-2015 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
01-23-2015 4:49 PM


If you don't describe what you're talking about there's no point in asking me anything, I am not interested in spending my life on this thread trying to find out if some other situation has anything in common with the one you're trying to evade. A murderous rebellion deserved a military putdown.
You really didn't answer the question about whether you accept that the restrictions were at all deserved, you merely evaded it with irrelevant stuff about the Vatican, nothing about Irish being the cause at all, and now you're evading it by referring me to a completely other situation. You are of course implicitly denying that they were at all deserved but I'll ask it again: do you regard any of it as deserved? By the Irish Catholics, that is, the people the restrictions are of course intended to punish. (What's your evidence that the poor people weren't equally to blame by the way?)
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 4:49 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 6:15 PM Faith has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 184 of 289 (748233)
01-23-2015 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
01-23-2015 4:56 PM


Faith writes:
If you don't describe what you're talking about there's no point in asking me anything, I am not interested in spending my life on this thread trying to find out if some other situation has anything in common with the one you're trying to evade. A murderous rebellion deserved a military putdown.
Okay, I will spell it out then. Both the Americans and the Irish rebelled against Great Britain and won their rebellions. America in 1783, Ireland in 1641. Both operated with their own government for a number of years, meaning authority transferred to them according to you by winning the rebellion. However, in the case of Ireland, you agree with the actions taken by Cromwell after Ireland was already free from Great Britain. Would you also then agree with Great Britain's attempt in 1812 (The War of 1812) to put America back under its control? After all, you claim Cromwell was putting down a violent rebellion, but that rebellion had ended years before Cromwell arrived on the scene. Doesn't that mean Great Britain was right to try and quell the American rebellion regardless of the fact that they were free for a number of years?
Faith writes:
You really didn't answer the question about whether you accept that the restrictions were at all deserved, you merely evaded it with irrelevant stuff about the Vatican, nothing about Irish being the cause at all, and now you're evading it by referring me to a completely other situation. You are of course implicitly denying that they were at all deserved but I'll ask it again: do you regard any of it as deserved? By the Irish Catholics, that is, the people the restrictions are of course intended to punish. (What's your evidence that the poor people weren't equally to blame by the way?)
First off, I'm sure some poor people did join the army in the rebellion, but you continue to miss the important detail that the penal laws were implemented prior to the rebellion. So, no...I do not agree with preemptively punishing people for the sins of their religion in other countries by other people. The penal laws really got initiated strongly under James I, although they had been used (first use I can find a mention of is under Henry VIII and specifically designed toward the Gaelic Irish) prior to that just not as strictly because Great Britain needed the wealthy Irish Catholics to help them defeat the Gaelic people. After the gunpowder plot, an English Catholic attempt (Notice that English is not Irish), James I began tightening the screws on the Irish Catholics. This is still almost forty years before the rebellion occurred. Not because of their fault, but because of the actions of individuals of the same faith in a different country. So, no I do not agree with the implementation of the penal laws and actually see them as a cause for the Irish Rebellion that would occur 38 years later. These laws and reducing Irish Catholics to poverty and no legal recourse, especially during a century known for poor growing seasons and especially harsh winters, is a legitimate reason for the Irish to want to reclaim their homeland from an invading force, regardless of religion. Remember, the primary divides were nationlist/royalist versus loyalist, which means the Catholics did not kill all Protestants, only those who were loyal to the country that had invaded theirs. However, this divide does roughly fall along religious lines, so religion was used sometimes to incite anger or justify actions that would otherwise be deplorable. Both sides did this, which is why I say this is a much more difficult topic than you have tried to make it. It is not so simple as only Catholics were bad and the Protestants were kindly folk, nor vice versa. It is a complicated 800 year history and should not be used in debate as an example of Catholic violence, because there was much more involved that a view like that loses sight of.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 4:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 10:04 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 185 of 289 (748250)
01-23-2015 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
01-23-2015 6:15 PM


Tempe, I'm sorry but I can't read a whole post that starts out implying the Irish Rebellion that was the wholesale unprovoked murder of Protestants is the same thing as America's rebellion against Great Britain. Sorry, can't stomach such a comparison, or any other comparison you assert, such as with the War of 1812 and Cfromwell.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-23-2015 6:15 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(4)
Message 186 of 289 (748263)
01-24-2015 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
01-23-2015 10:20 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Your point is so very simple and that is why it is ridiculous. It ignores all context, all history and all occurances leading up to the rebellion, it ignores the reasons for the rebellion.
It ignores everything that is known except for your preferred Protestant martyr narrative.
It is dishonest, unintelligent, and ridiculous, and until you at least attempt to read what people have posted dies not warrant further response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 10:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 12:20 PM Heathen has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 187 of 289 (748283)
01-24-2015 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Heathen
01-24-2015 4:05 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I'm not going to read long posts that make comparisons without even explaining what similarities there could possibly be but claiming they exist anyway. It's too much to ask.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Heathen, posted 01-24-2015 4:05 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Heathen, posted 01-25-2015 3:36 AM Faith has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 289 (748296)
01-24-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
01-22-2015 8:11 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I know you can show a lot of historical and political complexities.
The reason I am showing these complexities Faith is because they show that the Irish rebellion was not purely about religion.
If this was only about Catholics vs Protestants then why were the Huguenaut Protestants not attacked, why not the Protestants in Wexford in all of Irish history?
If this is just about people being Protestant why were those two groups not attacked.
The historical complexities show that your "simple fact" is simply not the case. It is childish to basically claim anything that counteracts your point is irrelevant complexity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 8:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 1:07 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 189 of 289 (748297)
01-24-2015 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Son Goku
01-24-2015 12:58 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
You win, there's no such thing as Catholics attacking Protestants because they are Protestants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Son Goku, posted 01-24-2015 12:58 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Son Goku, posted 01-24-2015 1:11 PM Faith has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 289 (748300)
01-24-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
01-24-2015 1:07 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
I never said there was no such thing as Catholics attacking Protestants because they were Protestant, what are you saying here?
All I am saying is that the motivation for attacking the Protestants in the 1641 rebellion couldn't have been purely religious. If it was, why were the Huguenots and the Wexford Dutch not attacked?
Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 1:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 1:52 PM Son Goku has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 191 of 289 (748305)
01-24-2015 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Son Goku
01-24-2015 1:11 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
OK, I'll take it all back then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Son Goku, posted 01-24-2015 1:11 PM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Theodoric, posted 01-24-2015 2:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 192 of 289 (748312)
01-24-2015 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
01-24-2015 1:52 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
OK, I'll take it all back then.
Now was admitting you are wrong that hard?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 1:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 193 of 289 (748351)
01-25-2015 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
01-24-2015 12:20 PM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
and that is why you will remain ignorant.
idiot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 12:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:33 AM Heathen has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 289 (748377)
01-25-2015 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Heathen
01-25-2015 3:36 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Utter nonsense isn't worth knowing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Heathen, posted 01-25-2015 3:36 AM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Theodoric, posted 01-25-2015 2:22 PM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 195 of 289 (748406)
01-25-2015 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
01-25-2015 10:33 AM


Re: Crime and its punishment aren't the same thing
Show evidence it is nonsense and someone may be willing to listen. If you can not why do you even post anything.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 10:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 01-25-2015 4:08 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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