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Author Topic:   Are you Racist? Homophobic? etc
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 436 of 578 (746527)
01-07-2015 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Faith
01-07-2015 2:50 PM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
Faith writes:
Looked it over, subbie. The problem with this whole subject is that any way race can be shown to be a factor in such a profile or any social situation it is assumed to be racism and unjust. I can't make that assumption. If it is known that blacks and Hispanics are more often involved in criminal activities of certain kinds than, say, whites or Asians, then it is simply common sense, realistic judgment of the probabilities, to suspect them. I'd want to see the statistics compared to the rate of criminal activities in Chicago by those races before I concluded racism is involved. I'd also ask how many Asians there are in the city and what proportion of them are stopped under the same circumstances.
You are focused on the tree and missing the forest here Faith. You want to focus on these three individual cases, when the majority of the problem is caused by systemic racism, which is allowed because of unconscious biases that we all have. This is why we need to fight these biases and more importantly, learn when we ourselves have these biases. Are minorities more prone to crime because of their race, or is it the fact that opportunities are not as available for a majority of them as they would be for white individuals. In the gun thread, I mentioned the wealth gap between Arizona and Philly which shows an average salary difference of 10,000 dollars between those two cities. When more opportunities are afforded to minority populations, the homicide rates tend to drop within these groups because crime is not the only option that pays well. In Philly, individuals average low 30,000 in pay and has a high homicide rate, with a minority population of approximately 30-40%. In Phoenix, there is 10,000 more dollars in the average pay, which coincides with a reduction in the overall homicide rate. Plus, there is a minority population nearly identical to the percentage found in Philly. The systemic racism is the area that needs to stop and we are seeing examples of this happening finally. The removal of stop and frisk, the attempts to gut Arizona's SB1070 (Nothing but a huge bill filled with systemic racism), the education system moving away from standardized testing...all of these items remove some of the institutionalized racism that is prevalent in this country. Stop focusing on single trees and see if your life would have had exactly identical opportunities if you had been born black or Mexican. I'm not saying the individuals were racist for sure, what I am saying is that the system is designed to provide opportunities where racism can thrive and create negative effects. The incident with Tamir is one I think where underlying racism trained a cop to assume the child was a danger because of his color. This has been discussed in this thread already with the discussion of the Super Predator myth.
I'm not saying any of these incidents are guaranteed to be racist, but focusing only on these three cases, instead of the institutional system that leaves many minorities with crime as the only option to get ahead in America is what I mean by losing the forest by staring at trees.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Faith, posted 01-07-2015 2:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 10:25 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 437 of 578 (746564)
01-08-2015 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
01-07-2015 3:51 PM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
You are focused on the tree and missing the forest here Faith. You want to focus on these three individual cases, when the majority of the problem is caused by systemic racism, which is allowed because of unconscious biases that we all have.
This is assumption, and it has not been proved. If you want to show that racism has a part in any incident or collection of incidents you do have to SHOW it, you cannot assume it, and as far as I can see in every instance so far brought up here there is simply no evidence. Two of the three cases I discussed show NO evidence whatever of racism, and the sad case of the Rice boy could possibly, in the sense that the cops might have been too ready to assume he was armed and dangerous. You think it was racism, but again you can't just assume this, you'd have to prove it, perhaps with similar examples with a white kid.
If you are going to ASSUME racism in every incident with a white cop and a black suspect, I'm back to saying you should have only black cops in black neighborhoods.
This is why we need to fight these biases and more importantly, learn when we ourselves have these biases.
\
You state an assumption, treat it as if it were reality, and go galloping right on to a solution for this figment of your imagination. Prove that racism is part of any of these incidents FIRST. We can't run a society on assumptions.
Are minorities more prone to crime because of their race, or is it the fact that opportunities are not as available for a majority of them as they would be for white individuals.
I don't see why we have to answer this question if the facts simply show that they ARE more prone to crime. The job of the cops is to deal with crime, causes have to be dealt with at some other level. IF more crime is committed by blacks or Hispanics then it simply makes sense to place more suspicion on them in given situations. Simple reality.
I also don't think there is a lack of opportunity any more, the problem is that education is not valued in some of these communities, it may even be denigrated as a wimpy thing or something only Whitey does, and criminality even has a sort of panache that attracts young men. I'd like to see leaders rise up within these communities to encourage education and moral standards, develop mentoring programs or something along those lines. This is not the job of the police.
I'm not saying any of these incidents are guaranteed to be racist, but focusing only on these three cases, instead of the institutional system that leaves many minorities with crime as the only option to get ahead in America is what I mean by losing the forest by staring at trees.
Again you assume a lot. My focus is on criminal incidents, where the only thing that can be done is deal with them as criminal incidents. Again, if you want to deal with causes I'd suggest the cultural causes within these communities as I describe above before I'd suggest racism from outside the communities.
By the way I grew up in a blue-collar family in which I had no encouragement whatever to succeed at a higher level than that. I also got no encouragement even on that level, how to fit myself for any particular kind of work. My family could also be described as emotionally depriving and anxiety-promoting, and I stumbled around blindly for years before falling into an unhappy marriage as the only refuge in a world that made no sense to me. I am grateful for that refuge, however, as it did give me enough security to develop my mind in certain directions. However, overall I think I was culturally disadvantaged. Perhaps most of us stumble around trying to find ourselves without any real guidance from our elders, but I think most of those who do succeed at developing a life of productive work do have that sort of guidance. This is what I would like to see in communities where crime abounds.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 01-07-2015 3:51 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 10:34 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 438 of 578 (746565)
01-08-2015 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by Faith
01-08-2015 10:25 AM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
Faith writes:
This is assumption, and it has not been proved.
Funny how proof/evidence is sometimes important to you and sometimes/mostly not.
However, i can't speak for your police forces, but others - including Australia and the UK - have been found to be institutionally racist several times. This has been accepted by the forces themselves. Eg
Lawrence revelations: admit institutional racism, Met chief told | Metropolitan police | The Guardian
I find it hard to believe that your forces are exempt from this kind of thing given what I'm reading.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 10:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 11:07 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 439 of 578 (746574)
01-08-2015 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
01-08-2015 10:34 AM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
There is no evidence of racism in the cases I've discussed. If you think there is evidence at the link please give me a paragraph or something to go on, thanks. And by the way I have never ever said anything to suggest that evidence is not important, that's simply how others misconstrue faith, it's not my view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 10:34 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by subbie, posted 01-08-2015 11:24 AM Faith has replied
 Message 443 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 11:56 AM Faith has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 440 of 578 (746578)
01-08-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by Faith
01-08-2015 11:07 AM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
You still haven't addressed the evidence of institutionalized racism in the Chicago Police Department.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 11:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 11:43 AM subbie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 441 of 578 (746581)
01-08-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by subbie
01-08-2015 11:24 AM


ThtaT'Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
That's because I don't SEE any evidence of institutionalized racism in the Chicago Police Department as you presented it, and I certainly did address what you presented.
If there is a higher proportion of crime in the community as a whole that explains the higher incidence of searching for contraband. If more contraband is found in white vehicles, that should eventually affect the profiling, perhaps, but if the standard is the proportion of crime in the community it will probably continue. In any case the search is based on an assessment of probability, not racism.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by subbie, posted 01-08-2015 11:24 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by subbie, posted 01-08-2015 2:13 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 442 of 578 (746582)
01-08-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by Dr Adequate
01-07-2015 3:20 PM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
You don't need a majority, all you need is a higher proportion.
Your comparison of racial groups with the "group" of the entire male sex is ridiculous.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-07-2015 3:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-08-2015 2:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 443 of 578 (746583)
01-08-2015 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by Faith
01-08-2015 11:07 AM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
Faith writes:
There is no evidence of racism in the cases I've discussed. If you think there is evidence at the link please give me a paragraph or something to go on, thanks.
There is nothing in that link that talks about the case you're discussing. My point was that several police forces in modern democracies have been found to be - and they have accepted it themselves - institutionally racist. I don't see why the US should be exempt from this, given what has been in the media about recent events in the US.
And by the way I have never ever said anything to suggest that evidence is not important, that's simply how others misconstrue faith, it's not my view.
Bloody hell - you never cease to amaze.
Do you now deny saying that 'when the evidence points to the bible being wrong, then the evidence is wrong' or words to that effect? ie that no evidence can prove the bible wrong.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 11:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 1:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 444 of 578 (746602)
01-08-2015 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Tangle
01-08-2015 11:56 AM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
Rejecting some evidence as wrong on the basis of its contradicting God is not rejecting evidence, it's saying the evidence is flawed and there is good reason for believing that. God is God, if what you call evidence contradicts Him the evidence is wrong. This is not an objection to evidence as such. Such distinctions are really not all that hard to grasp but there seems to be an ingrained inability at EvC to grasp them nevertheless.
The fact that institutionalized racism is "accepted" doesn't mean it's based on reality.
If you want to cut down on crime, work WITHIN the communities with the highest crime rates. Blaming it on external factors is a dead end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 11:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 2:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 445 of 578 (746607)
01-08-2015 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Faith
01-08-2015 1:41 PM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
Faith writes:
Rejecting some evidence as wrong on the basis of its contradicting God is not rejecting evidence, it's saying the evidence is flawed and there is good reason for believing that. God is God, if what you call evidence contradicts Him the evidence is wrong. This is not an objection to evidence as such.
If no evidence can contradict that which is claimed in the bible, you are rejecting evidence for no other reason than it contradicts something in the bible. You are therefore rejecting evidence without reasonable cause.
The fact that institutionalized racism is "accepted" doesn't mean it's based on reality.
What nonsense, if the institutiona accused of racism, pleads guilty to the charge, it's real.
If you want to cut down on crime, work WITHIN the communities with the highest crime rates. Blaming it on external factors is a dead end.
This is a non sequitur - but I agree with it.

Je suis Charlie.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 1:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 2:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 446 of 578 (746608)
01-08-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by Faith
01-08-2015 11:46 AM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
You don't need a majority, all you need is a higher proportion.
Yes you do, and no you don't, respectively.
Your comparison of racial groups with the "group" of the entire male sex is ridiculous.
No it isn't.
---
So, would you like to come up with some actual arguments to counter mine, or shall we stick to bare assertion?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 11:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 447 of 578 (746609)
01-08-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Faith
01-08-2015 11:43 AM


Re: ThtaT'Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
What you have failed to explain is why blacks are stopped and searched more often when the facts show that whites are more likely to be found with contraband. If you don't see that as evidence for institutionalized racism, what other explanation do you offer? Or do you simply ignore the facts?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 11:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 2:18 PM subbie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 448 of 578 (746610)
01-08-2015 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Tangle
01-08-2015 2:05 PM


Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
If no evidence can contradict that which is claimed in the bible, you are rejecting evidence for no other reason than it contradicts something in the bible. You are therefore rejecting evidence without reasonable cause.
Yeah, I knew you couldn't think your way out of your paper bag. If it contradicts GOD, then I am rejecting evidence with the best of reasonable causes. DO think for a change.
What nonsense, if the institutiona accused of racism, pleads guilty to the charge, it's real.
Well, you've failed to supply me some reason to bother to read your link, though perhaps eventually I will nevertheless. Or won't. Pleading guilty to a PC charge of racism may be the quickest way to get the PC hounds off their case for all I know. Or they're buying into the PC position that what's in our minds should be subjected to scriptiny by Big Brother, and not really caring whether the facts bear out the usual PC assumption, which keeps turning out not to be the case every time somebody posts some supposed evidence here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 2:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Tangle, posted 01-09-2015 3:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 449 of 578 (746611)
01-08-2015 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by subbie
01-08-2015 2:13 PM


Re: ThtaT'Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
I have answered that. They aren't keeping track of how many of what race are found with contraband, they are going by what they know about the proportion of crime within certain communities. If you want them to go by the percentage of a race found with contraband then you are going to have to tell them to start thinking that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by subbie, posted 01-08-2015 2:13 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by subbie, posted 01-08-2015 2:37 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 451 by xongsmith, posted 01-08-2015 3:24 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 452 by xongsmith, posted 01-08-2015 3:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 450 of 578 (746613)
01-08-2015 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Faith
01-08-2015 2:18 PM


Re: ThtaT'Re: learned, internalized, automatic, unconscious ... can it be changed?
That may be the most confusing thing you've ever said here.
Try again, but take out all of the "they"s and "them"s, otherwise nobody knows who or what you are talking about.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 2:18 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by NoNukes, posted 01-09-2015 2:50 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
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