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Junior Member (Idle past 3466 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: OK, fair enough. Here is another question. As people...as humans...should we expect anything from each other? What is the least we should expect? As a human you should expect nothing from each other. Now as a society or a culture there may be some basic expectations. As an American citizen you may expect a few things; that your life should not be taken away violently by the State without due process, that you should have a limited freedom of speech and religion, that your belongings and property should not be taken from you by the State except through due process, that you may try to find work and if you do that that work pays a minimum wage, that you might be eligible for some limited support for a limited period of time should you not find work, that you might be eligible for some minimal form of health care should you meet certain requirements, that you not be discriminated against based on age, religion, sex, skin color or national origin and a few other expectations that vary based on location.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: So tell me why if Jesus paid the bill...the debt...for everyone that it would be a farce. Does not GOD have the right to give humanity amnesty from failure? Does this action cheapen GOD or does it cheapen the entire concept of fairness and justice? Learn to read what I write. If God required Jesus as a sacrifice to pay some bill for others it would be no different than the society sacrificing you to appease some angry God. Yes it cheapens God and makes God look stupid. If Jesus was not totally human while alive on earth then it is a farce. If God is capable of forgiving sin then God is capable of forgiving sin and does not need some blood sacrifice to forgive sin. Expecting amnesty is a recipe for failure.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
It is not cheap to offer to pay a mans debt. It is honorable, if you have the resources, to do so.
But surely God has the "Resources" to save all of mankind? but he apparently doesn't do this? (unbaptised babies, non believers etc etc.)is this dishonourable? But mainly I take issue that Jesus death was any kind of "sacrifice" at all.-God/Jesus is an eternal being. So bringing and end to 27 years of human existance is negligible. -Jesus ascended in to heaven to be seated at the right hand of the father. A good thing, right? So where was the sacrifice? Jesus didn't "Die" in an eternal sense. more like his visit to earth was shorter than it might have been.His temporary fleshy body experienced some pain, sure, but as an eternal, spiritual being that barely deserves mention. less than a pinprick to your finger in your lifetime. Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The ones who don't incur points aren't really benefiting from the amnesty. What I have observed is that the responsible ones keep being responsible while the slackers continue to incur points against their record. The responsible ones never expect timeclock amnesty...yet they benefit from it as do the slackers. Nobody refuses to accept it. A better analogy would be if anybody who didn't accept the amnesty got fired. Of course, firing the responsible workers along with the irresponsible workers would be irresponsible on the part of management.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Phat writes: As people...as humans...should we expect anything from each other? What is the least we should expect? I can offer you two - the first you might recognise: To be done to as we would be done by. The second is a secular equivalent, from the Advertising Standards Authority (UK). To be legal, decent, honest and truthful But the golden rule covers it - and, of course, it wasn't a Christian invention, most societies has a version of it.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes: Who Is Jesus today? jar writes: I have no idea what that even means or how that could even be answered by anyone. You claim to be a Creedal Cradle Christian. Does your creed provide any answers to this question? You ask (in another current thread) why we can't be better than Jesus was---and I suppose this is a valid question. Note what you say here, however:
jar writes: If there is an afterlife (I believe there will be) then after I die I will be judged based on my personal behavior while I was alive. I imagine that I will be judged to have failed to live up to the example Jesus gave us and sinned even more often than Jesus did but I hope that GOD through His grace, will pardon me. All students should aspire to be more than the teacher was--I can't fault you for trying to do your best, jar.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Phat writes: Who Is Jesus today? jar writes: I have no idea what that even means or how that could even be answered by anyone. You claim to be a Creedal Cradle Christian. Does your creed provide any answers to this question? No! Creeds are statements of belief, not of fact or reality. A creed can state what someone believes but does not answer anything about what is or who is.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Creeds are statements of belief, not of fact or reality. A creed can state what someone believes but does not answer anything about what is or who is. The creeds were formulated to embody the truths revealed in scripture. Truths. Facts. Reality. If belief isn't belief in truth it's worthless, and your beliefs certainly are the height of worthlessness since you discount any reality behind them. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Have you ever read the Nicene Creed Faith?
quote: Note the recurring assertion "I believe". It says believe. I could say "This is" but it does not. We may hope and believe something is true but that belief does not make it true. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But surely God has the "Resources" to save all of mankind? but he apparently doesn't do this? (unbaptised babies, non believers etc etc.) Assuming that there are two states of being--namely saved and lost---the babies would get a free pass. The unbelievers have a choice whether or not to access the resources made available to all. The problem that the critics have is that God wont allow them a free pass based on their own terms rather than Gods.
But mainly I take issue that Jesus death was any kind of "sacrifice" at all. It is because you are attempting to view the event from Gods perspective. Sure a day in the life of an eternal Being is probably insignificant. An eternal Being made man, however, feels every emotion, pain, and mental anguish that a human would feel. If a human survived a wartime torture/death camp, for example...the time spent would not be the criteria of the trauma. The events themselves would be imprinted on that mind forever.
-God/Jesus is an eternal being. So bringing and end to 27 years of human existence is negligible. How would you measure the impact of an event on a given Being?
So where was the sacrifice? Jesus didn't "Die" in an eternal sense. more like his visit to earth was shorter than it might have been. The sacrifice was for an eternal Being of such magnitude and power to even stoop to becoming human,for one thing. The pain felt as a human was very real...whether it lasted ten minutes or ten thousand years.
His temporary fleshy body experienced some pain, sure, but as an eternal, spiritual being that barely deserves mention. We can speculate, but as we are not eternal spiritual beings we cannot know. In a sense, your argument is basically accusing God of having made no adequate sacrifice to justify the power given to such an event. My question to you, then, is what would God need to do to satisfy your requirement for a sacrifice to be effective?Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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