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Author Topic:   Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 166 of 175 (743764)
12-04-2014 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
12-04-2014 5:27 AM


Re: As a believer.
Phat writes:
OK, fair enough. Here is another question. As people...as humans...should we expect anything from each other? What is the least we should expect?
As a human you should expect nothing from each other.
Now as a society or a culture there may be some basic expectations.
As an American citizen you may expect a few things; that your life should not be taken away violently by the State without due process, that you should have a limited freedom of speech and religion, that your belongings and property should not be taken from you by the State except through due process, that you may try to find work and if you do that that work pays a minimum wage, that you might be eligible for some limited support for a limited period of time should you not find work, that you might be eligible for some minimal form of health care should you meet certain requirements, that you not be discriminated against based on age, religion, sex, skin color or national origin and a few other expectations that vary based on location.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 12-04-2014 5:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 167 of 175 (743765)
12-04-2014 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
12-04-2014 5:37 AM


Re: Timeclock Amnesty
Phat writes:
So tell me why if Jesus paid the bill...the debt...for everyone that it would be a farce. Does not GOD have the right to give humanity amnesty from failure? Does this action cheapen GOD or does it cheapen the entire concept of fairness and justice?
Learn to read what I write.
If God required Jesus as a sacrifice to pay some bill for others it would be no different than the society sacrificing you to appease some angry God. Yes it cheapens God and makes God look stupid.
If Jesus was not totally human while alive on earth then it is a farce.
If God is capable of forgiving sin then God is capable of forgiving sin and does not need some blood sacrifice to forgive sin.
Expecting amnesty is a recipe for failure.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-04-2014 5:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 168 of 175 (743766)
12-04-2014 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
12-02-2014 3:14 PM


Re: As a believer.
It is not cheap to offer to pay a mans debt. It is honorable, if you have the resources, to do so.
But surely God has the "Resources" to save all of mankind? but he apparently doesn't do this? (unbaptised babies, non believers etc etc.)
is this dishonourable?
But mainly I take issue that Jesus death was any kind of "sacrifice" at all.
-God/Jesus is an eternal being. So bringing and end to 27 years of human existance is negligible.
-Jesus ascended in to heaven to be seated at the right hand of the father. A good thing, right?
So where was the sacrifice? Jesus didn't "Die" in an eternal sense. more like his visit to earth was shorter than it might have been.
His temporary fleshy body experienced some pain, sure, but as an eternal, spiritual being that barely deserves mention.
less than a pinprick to your finger in your lifetime.
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 12-02-2014 3:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 7:31 AM Heathen has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 169 of 175 (743787)
12-04-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
12-04-2014 5:37 AM


Re: Timeclock Amnesty
Phat writes:
What I have observed is that the responsible ones keep being responsible while the slackers continue to incur points against their record. The responsible ones never expect timeclock amnesty...yet they benefit from it as do the slackers. Nobody refuses to accept it.
The ones who don't incur points aren't really benefiting from the amnesty.
A better analogy would be if anybody who didn't accept the amnesty got fired. Of course, firing the responsible workers along with the irresponsible workers would be irresponsible on the part of management.

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 170 of 175 (743817)
12-05-2014 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
12-04-2014 5:27 AM


Re: As a believer.
Phat writes:
As people...as humans...should we expect anything from each other? What is the least we should expect?
I can offer you two - the first you might recognise:
To be done to as we would be done by.
The second is a secular equivalent, from the Advertising Standards Authority (UK).
To be legal, decent, honest and truthful
But the golden rule covers it - and, of course, it wasn't a Christian invention, most societies has a version of it.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 175 (746821)
01-10-2015 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
11-18-2013 10:19 AM


Re: As a believer.
Phat writes:
Who Is Jesus today?
jar writes:
I have no idea what that even means or how that could even be answered by anyone.
You claim to be a Creedal Cradle Christian. Does your creed provide any answers to this question?
You ask (in another current thread) why we can't be better than Jesus was---and I suppose this is a valid question. Note what you say here, however:
jar writes:
If there is an afterlife (I believe there will be) then after I die I will be judged based on my personal behavior while I was alive. I imagine that I will be judged to have failed to live up to the example Jesus gave us and sinned even more often than Jesus did but I hope that GOD through His grace, will pardon me.
All students should aspire to be more than the teacher was--I can't fault you for trying to do your best, jar.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 11-18-2013 10:19 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 01-10-2015 8:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 172 of 175 (746829)
01-10-2015 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
01-10-2015 7:37 AM


Re: As a believer.
Phat writes:
Phat writes:
Who Is Jesus today?
jar writes:
I have no idea what that even means or how that could even be answered by anyone.
You claim to be a Creedal Cradle Christian. Does your creed provide any answers to this question?
No!
Creeds are statements of belief, not of fact or reality. A creed can state what someone believes but does not answer anything about what is or who is.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 01-10-2015 7:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 01-10-2015 10:33 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 175 (746840)
01-10-2015 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by jar
01-10-2015 8:34 AM


Re: As a believer, says jar -- what a sad joke that is.
Creeds are statements of belief, not of fact or reality. A creed can state what someone believes but does not answer anything about what is or who is.
The creeds were formulated to embody the truths revealed in scripture. Truths. Facts. Reality. If belief isn't belief in truth it's worthless, and your beliefs certainly are the height of worthlessness since you discount any reality behind them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 01-10-2015 8:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 01-10-2015 10:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 174 of 175 (746850)
01-10-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
01-10-2015 10:33 AM


Re: As a believer, says jar -- what a sad joke that is.
Have you ever read the Nicene Creed Faith?
quote:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Note the recurring assertion "I believe".
It says believe. I could say "This is" but it does not.
We may hope and believe something is true but that belief does not make it true.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 01-10-2015 10:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 175 of 175 (747559)
01-16-2015 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Heathen
12-04-2014 9:06 AM


Re: As a believer.
But surely God has the "Resources" to save all of mankind? but he apparently doesn't do this? (unbaptised babies, non believers etc etc.)
Assuming that there are two states of being--namely saved and lost---the babies would get a free pass. The unbelievers have a choice whether or not to access the resources made available to all. The problem that the critics have is that God wont allow them a free pass based on their own terms rather than Gods.
But mainly I take issue that Jesus death was any kind of "sacrifice" at all.
It is because you are attempting to view the event from Gods perspective. Sure a day in the life of an eternal Being is probably insignificant. An eternal Being made man, however, feels every emotion, pain, and mental anguish that a human would feel. If a human survived a wartime torture/death camp, for example...the time spent would not be the criteria of the trauma. The events themselves would be imprinted on that mind forever.
-God/Jesus is an eternal being. So bringing and end to 27 years of human existence is negligible.
How would you measure the impact of an event on a given Being?
So where was the sacrifice? Jesus didn't "Die" in an eternal sense. more like his visit to earth was shorter than it might have been.
The sacrifice was for an eternal Being of such magnitude and power to even stoop to becoming human,for one thing. The pain felt as a human was very real...whether it lasted ten minutes or ten thousand years.
His temporary fleshy body experienced some pain, sure, but as an eternal, spiritual being that barely deserves mention.
We can speculate, but as we are not eternal spiritual beings we cannot know. In a sense, your argument is basically accusing God of having made no adequate sacrifice to justify the power given to such an event. My question to you, then, is what would God need to do to satisfy your requirement for a sacrifice to be effective?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Heathen, posted 12-04-2014 9:06 AM Heathen has not replied

  
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