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Author | Topic: Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22954 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 7.1 |
Faith writes: The Bible IS evidence, I haven't changed that tune at all. I didn't say you had. We were talking about whether faith requires evidence, not whether the Bible is evidence. I noted that first you insisted that evidence is the foundation of faith ("You are wrong about faith, it MUST be based on evidence"), then you later contradicted yourself and denigrated evidence ("The way evidence is demanded here is just a sort of odd habit, or like an irrational cultural practice with regard to the Bible and questions about the supernatural in general."). You also denigrated external evidence ("This external evidence that is demanded is not needed but habit /bias makes them think it is."). So since you keep changing your mind, let me ask again: Is evidence necessary for faith or not? If it is, then why in the world are you denigrating evidence? What you've really been saying is, "If you were believers like me you wouldn't be asking these questions." And our answer would be, "If you had answers to these questions you'd be talking instead of dancing." Returning to the topic, do you have any evidence that the Bible is the Word of God and is inerrant? Your last answer was "prophecy", then you declined to discuss it (see Message 566). I'm not that interested in discussing prophecy, either, unless you can first draw a connection between correct prophecy and divine and inerrant authorship. How does one imply the other? --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18655 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
PaulK writes: And the reason I don't see the "implication" in the Tower of Babel story is because it isn't there. If you disagree show me - but don't forget that any assumptions from outside the story could invalidate your claim. Hello PaulK. I cannot speak for anyone except myself, but the Tower of Babel story is quite symbolic to me. I see it as showing how humanity seeks to be unified in purpose without God. No Pastor taught me this and it was never presented this way to me from any Biblical Christian newspeak. It was the way that the story seemed to me to be. I'll show you how I interpreted it.
Genesis 11:1-9(KJV) writes: Gen 11:1-911:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. So this group of people...who the author sees as being "the whole earth" or all of the people in existence at this point in time...had one language and one speech. The word "speech" in Hebrew is thus:
Strongs writes: Thus these people had One action. One cause. One concern. One purpose. And apparantly, were all on the same journey. So they find a place to dwell.
speechOT:1697 dabar (daw-baw'); from OT:1696; a word; by implication, a matter (as spoken of) or thing; adverbially, a cause: KJV - act, advice, affair, answer, any such (thing), because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, chronicles, commandment, commune (-ication), concern [-ing], confer, counsel, dearth, decree, deed, disease, due, duty, effect, eloquent, errand, [evil favouredness-], glory, harm, hurt, iniquity, judgment, language, lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, ought, parts, pertaining, please, portion, power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, sign, so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, song, speech, spoken, talk, task, that, there done, thing (concerning), thought, thus, tidings, what [-soever], wherewith, which, word, work.(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) OT:3427 writes: A place to settle. To marry. To live. yashab (yaw-shab'); a primitive root; properly, to sit down (specifically as judge. in ambush, in quiet); by implication, to dwell, to remain; causatively, to settle, to marry: So then they get to talking to each other. Keep in mind they are all in agreement as to one purpose,one power, and one provision. So they begin to build themselves a city with a symbolic tower. They do this to make a name for themselves.
OT:8034 writes:
They want a common identity. a common memorial of individuality,authority,and national or collective character. Why? So that they not become scattered individuals with no name, no character, and no purpose. Sounds logical, right? But as the story says, the Lord came down(descended) to check out what was happening. Personally, I could see a similarity between the symbol of the Tower of Babel and todays modern methods of social cohesiveness. But anyway, getting back to the story...God sees that these people are one. united. Of one spirit. One purpose. And yet they are not of His Spirit. He is not part of the common union. There is no communion between GOD, creator of all seen and unseen...and these people on this mission to create their mark...their memorial...their tombstone epitaph as it were. --shem (shame); a primitive word [perhaps rather from OT:7760 through the idea of definite and conspicuous position; compare OT:8064]; an appellation, as a mark or memorial of individuality; by implication honor, authority, character: But of course, one could accuse me of reading my own particular ideology and bias into this interpretation. I wont deny the accusation. That is, however, what the story meant to me. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 99 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Note what is said and you even quote.
quote: Note that the God character says if people have a common language, common purpose then they will be able to do anything they imagine. Just as in the Garden of Eden fable and the Exodus fable the God character sees this as a direct threat to be dealt with by force. In the GoE fable the God forces the man and women to leave the Garden because he fears that they will become immortal. In the Exodus myth the God character hardens Pharaoh's heart to show how big a dick he has and in this fable the God character screws up everyone's language and scatters them all over the globe. In each of the stories there is one common theme; the God character is not someone to love or like or worship except through fear. OR... the fable can be simply another "Just So" story to explain why there are different languages and not really about God except as a plot device. That is true about all three fables; you have two choices. You can see the God as a nasty, fearsome, insecure asshole or understand that the stories are not about God but rather about the world folk lived in explaining why we fear snakes, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than other animals, why we farm, why we grow old and die, why we create moral societies, why there are different languages in different places or the origin of a "Peoples identity".Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
If you take it as yesterday's newspaper then you'll never learn anything from it. Yesterday's news is often superseded by new information gathered today. If you stop the clock and insist on believing in "Peace in our time" you're not facing up to reality.
The Bible is meant to be learned from. If you just dismiss it because it doesn't sound right to you then you'll never learn anything from it....
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Phat Member Posts: 18655 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Some things that we learn change with time as new information is added.
Other things never change and are timeless truths. Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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Taq Member Posts: 10304 Joined: Member Rating: 7.3 |
For one thing many witnesses are needed, even according to Levitical law, because one is not trustworthy, which we know about you anyway. I do have the eyewitness of many. Here are there accounts. Jim Crawford: I saw the same thing as Taq. Frank Jones: I saw the same thing as Taq. Fran Smith: I saw the same thing as Taq. Now you have all the evidence you need.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Evidence is necessary to faith.
Evidence for Christian faith is the Bible, all of it, but particularly the evidence given for the miracles. It would be nice to have evidence external to the Bible but people deny the claims to that and my argument is that the Bible is sufficient, external evidence is not needed. Evidence for inerrancy is fulfilled prophecy. People here deny this and I don't want to get involved in another futile discussion. This is just a summary and to emphasize I believe evidence is necessary to faith. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22954 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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Faith writes: Evidence is necessary to faith...etc... Okay, let me briefly summarize your position:
Do I have it about right? --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That'll do.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
It seems more true to say that your evidence is based on faith.
Certainly God hasn't done much to provide evidence to us. Poorly evidenced miracle stories are hardly as good as actual miracles.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Duplicate
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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frako Member Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Evidence is necessary to faith.
Evidence for Muslim faith is the Quran, all of it, but particularly the evidence given for the miracles. It would be nice to have evidence external to the Quran but people deny the claims to that and my argument is that the Quran is sufficient, external evidence is not needed. Evidence for inerrancy is fulfilled prophecy. People here deny this and I don't want to get involved in another futile discussion. This is just a summary and to emphasize I believe evidence is necessary to faith. Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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Percy Member Posts: 22954 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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Which is your favorite Quranic fulfilled prophecy? Mine is the one about the restoration of the state of Israel:
Quran writes: "And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people." (17:105) I think that clinches it. Everyone knows that any book containing a fulfilled prophecy is the inerrant Word of God, so the Quran is it. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Evidence is necessary to faith. Silly stuff, actually,
quote: What's the point of Jesus words's to doubting Didymus here? Was Jesus actually praising Thomas and mocking those who had simply believed Mary's account?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How would you know? Can you see the future?
Other things never change and are timeless truths.
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