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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(9)
Message 1096 of 1309 (742088)
11-16-2014 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Faith
11-16-2014 12:47 PM


The idea that you can just decide after the entire history of the world that marriage applies to any other duo than male and female is what makes all the talk about rights garbage.
We do not live under any form of Christian Sharia Law (and may we never!), but rather under the Constitution of the United States of America and the laws derived therefrom. We live under a concept of inalienable human rights, a concept that a branch of Calvinism, the Christian Reconstructionists (who wanted to transform America into an Old Testament theocracy and who were the political inspiration and mentors of the Radical Religious Right), denounced as having been invented by Satan, along with other heresies such as democracy and religious liberty (of which one Reconstructionist wrote that Reconstructionists should invoke their religious liberties constantly in order to eventually deprive all others of theirs).
Human rights are not subject to the vote of the majority. Human rights are not subject to sundry other individuals' own peculiar convictions and religious beliefs. The laws of the land are not subject to your own nor anybody else's "God's Law", but rather to the Constitution of the United States of America, under which laws cannot be made for purely religious reasons. That is why such laws (eg, the "monkey laws", laws banning same-sex marriage) are found to be unconstitutional. The only reasons for laws banning same-sex have been found to be purely religious.
You live in America now. Until you can find a place to emigrate to that enforces strict "God's Law", you may as well get used to living in America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by Faith, posted 11-16-2014 12:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1097 by jar, posted 11-16-2014 6:55 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 1098 by Faith, posted 11-16-2014 6:56 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 1100 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 9:54 AM dwise1 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1097 of 1309 (742089)
11-16-2014 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1096 by dwise1
11-16-2014 6:41 PM


and fear of more Puritan and Calvinist oppression was the driving force for the First
And it was the general fear of the Puritans and Calvinists and their history of discrimination and oppression of other Christian sects as well as non Christians that was the main driving force for adding the First Amendment. In particular their behavior in New England and Maryland were major factors.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2014 6:41 PM dwise1 has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1098 of 1309 (742090)
11-16-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1096 by dwise1
11-16-2014 6:41 PM


deleted original post, counterproductive to continue to argue this. Have a nice evening.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2014 6:41 PM dwise1 has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1099 of 1309 (742111)
11-17-2014 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 943 by Faith
11-15-2014 8:18 AM


The Public Square
Faith,responding to vimesay writes:
Just out of curiosity, what should be done with those of us who will go on saying that homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by God if the person doesn't repent and turn to Christ, and that gay marriage is a violation of God's laws that can only bring His judgment against a nation? Or any form of preaching the gospel of Christ and Biblical truth in the public square for that matter. According to your way of construing all this will we continue to have that right or be punished for it?
In essence, a public forum such as this one is todays modern version of a "public square". You and I (and jar and Percy and all of EvC) have the right of free speech. As the "owner" of this forum, Percy has the basic right to censor,suspend, or reprimand any member which he feels is not contributing to the discussion in a positive manner.
In a larger context, the issue that I feel is being discussed is religious beliefs, personal conscience, the rights of individuals, the responsibility of individuals(perhaps the responsibility of Christian individuals as well as the rights of same) and the best way to present our arguments in this "online public square".
Lets get back to rights and responsibilities.
Percy also has a basic responsibility to allow free speech even if it is illogical, perhaps discriminatory, or self serving. He has, in my opinion, been most generous in this regard.
You and I, as Christians, have a basic responsibility to share the good news that we know in our hearts in a rational,calm, and consistent manner. Granted we are human---we get carried away with arguments and quarrels because in an inner sense we sometimes feel as if we are being persecuted for our beliefs--but---to be frank---no blood has yet been spilled, either literally or figuratively. (though we could claim that the Blood of Jesus has been spilled already and that this is indeed good news! )
Now about homosexuality as a sin. In my belief, there is a difference between what I believe in church and in my personal life as opposed to the responsibilities of a secular state and nation.
Quite frankly, Faith...I believe that just as God allowed humans to become evil initially...(thus allowing free will) we should allow the nation to freely decide its own laws and secular behavior. It may not be the Theocracy that many want..it is a secular nation--but in my belief this is the way that social progress can be made. Jar and others have a point when they say that Christians have been silent participants in cultures of the past that discriminated against various minorities.
Some could even argue that by us as Christians defining sin, we are in essence attempting to legislate our beliefs and morality on others who openly recognize no such thing as sin.
My point is simply this. Lets use our rights of free speech in public squares...be they actual or be they virtual internet ones such as EvC Forum...and lets represent our beliefs with integrity, honesty, and kindness towards others who may at best disagree with us and at worst seek to slander and vilify us. (keep praying and asking God for wisdom as you formulate your responses in this public square)

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Faith, posted 11-15-2014 8:18 AM Faith has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1100 of 1309 (742112)
11-17-2014 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1096 by dwise1
11-16-2014 6:41 PM


The Evolution Of Human Social Interaction
dwise1 writes:
We do not live under any form of Christian Sharia Law (and may we never!), but rather under the Constitution of the United States of America and the laws derived therefrom. We live under a concept of inalienable human rights, a concept that a branch of Calvinism, the Christian Reconstructionists (who wanted to transform America into an Old Testament theocracy and who were the political inspiration and mentors of the Radical Religious Right), denounced as having been invented by Satan, along with other heresies such as democracy and religious liberty (of which one Reconstructionist wrote that Reconstructionists should invoke their religious liberties constantly in order to eventually deprive all others of theirs).
Human rights are not subject to the vote of the majority. Human rights are not subject to sundry other individuals' own peculiar convictions and religious beliefs. The laws of the land are not subject to your own nor anybody else's "God's Law", but rather to the Constitution of the United States of America, under which laws cannot be made for purely religious reasons. That is why such laws (eg, the "monkey laws", laws banning same-sex marriage) are found to be unconstitutional. The only reasons for laws banning same-sex have been found to be purely religious.
I can't disagree with your assessment. Some will disagree, claiming that they want America to become (or remain) a Christian Nation. My personal belief is that we all have the right to become Christian(or atheist or Muslim or fill-in-the-blank individuals but that we live in a secular society and always will. I strongly support free speech, however. Carry on....

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2014 6:41 PM dwise1 has not replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 1101 of 1309 (742116)
11-17-2014 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 943 by Faith
11-15-2014 8:18 AM


Hi Faith - sorry it's taken me a while to respond. Real life intervenes, and I see there's a lot of water under the bridge, but I still want to reply.
Just out of curiosity, what should be done with those of us who will go on saying that homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by God if the person doesn't repent and turn to Christ, and that gay marriage is a violation of God's laws that can only bring His judgment against a nation? Or any form of preaching the gospel of Christ and Biblical truth in the public square for that matter. According to your way of construing all this will we continue to have that right or be punished for it?
You have the right to express your views and faith in public. I don't know how this works in the States, but there are some broad limits in England - you're prohibited from harassment, and from inciting hatred, based on someone's sexuality - but that does not prohibit a fair, public expression of your faith or opinions. And I would protest if it did.
(However, you should expect counter-rhetoric, and some level of opposition on the ground, from other members of the public who hold different views to yours).
The expression of a point of view (if it isn't so extreme in its nature of delivery, as to constitute harassment, or so extreme in its expression as to constitute an incitement to hatred), is not seen as causing harm to anyone. It's the discrimination against people, which causes the harm - treating people as less than others - as less worthy - as inferior. Preaching that someone is a sinner and should repent, if they want to be saved by your interpretation of God, is something I support you being able to do. I oppose your message very strongly, but I support your ability to express it just as strongly.
And by the way, it isn't just my opinion, "Sex" always meant male and female. It's been replaced by the wrong term "gender" which may be the cause of the confusion. It means male and female, period, it has nothing to do with the subjective stuff concerning sexuality.
I'm not too sure what you're aiming at here, but when I talked about stretching the English language not to call gay sex, sex, I was referring to your statement:
sex means male and female, not a sexual perversion.
Regardless of the origin of the usage, the word sex is now definitely capable of being used accurately to refer to what two or more people get up to with their genitals. I'm not sure the etymology of the usage adds much to the debate.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Faith, posted 11-15-2014 8:18 AM Faith has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 1102 of 1309 (742123)
11-17-2014 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1090 by Faith
11-16-2014 3:54 PM


Re: You Re: Second Reminder
Its very simple, Faith.
Can your business provide its services to every single person that walks through the door?
What's that? No, you can't make cakes for gay weddings?
Oh, then you don't qualify for a business license.
The rules are the same for everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1090 by Faith, posted 11-16-2014 3:54 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1103 of 1309 (742135)
11-17-2014 12:29 PM


Congratulations to the Devil!
abe: This is my response to Percy's point on the Discussion Problems thread that Jar is asking how refusing to make a wedding cake is not discrimination according to the law. That does clarify the whole problem. Of course to my mind if you are following God's law you can't be committing any kind of crime, but that isn't true if the world is willing to criminalize God's law which I haven't been quite able to believe could happen. But really it is what has happened. And that finishes off this whole argument. /abe
Gosh the devil is clever. I'm in awe. Take a law of God and criminalize it so that anyone who obeys it is a criminal. Man, that's clever. So by obeying God in refusing to validate gay marriage a person is now committing the crime of "discrimination," which is very interesting in itself since the whole idea of equality of treatment was originally Christian. But the devil has also redefined a class of people who are not a race or ethnic group but people who happen to share a sexual aberration, turned them into a legitimate Minority which must be protected by law from "discrimination" and by such Word Magic has gained enough popular support to deprive Christians of their American rights and push us into a corner, which is what his aim was all along. Let's see, he also did it centuries ago when he got the Bible outlawed. Man did they persecute us then! But he obviously hadn't run out of tricks with that one. Gosh this latest ploy is clever! Congratulations to the devil! I have to admit he's won, he's got us where he wants us. I wonder what he plans to do to us next.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1104 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2014 1:08 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1105 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 2:03 PM Faith has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 1104 of 1309 (742137)
11-17-2014 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1103 by Faith
11-17-2014 12:29 PM


Re: Congratulations to the Devil!
Does this mean that you understand that, according to the law, refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple is discrimination?
I get that its all the work of the devil....
But do you at least understand that it is, in fact, what the law says?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1103 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 12:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1106 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 2:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 1105 of 1309 (742142)
11-17-2014 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1103 by Faith
11-17-2014 12:29 PM


Re: Congratulations to the Devil!
Once again, not quite true as usual Faith.
Take a law of God and criminalize it so that anyone who obeys it is a criminal.
Bullshit Faith.
No individuals are forced to recognize or endorse, or validate or even acknowledge a same sex marriage.
Companies though cannot discriminate even when the discrimination stems from their personal belief.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1103 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 12:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1107 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 2:12 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1106 of 1309 (742143)
11-17-2014 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1104 by New Cat's Eye
11-17-2014 1:08 PM


Re: Congratulations to the Devil!
Yes that's what I'm saying. I still hope saner voices might prevail and turn it back, it's just marginally possible that could still happen, but I think with popular opinion as shown by the chorus here, on top of the direction of the courts in recent years, it is only going to keep going that way. As I say I haven't really been able to believe it could happen in the once-Christian west, but yes it's happened. Caesar has won, we have to worship him instead of God or take the consequences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1104 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2014 1:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1113 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-17-2014 3:34 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1107 of 1309 (742144)
11-17-2014 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1105 by jar
11-17-2014 2:03 PM


Re: Congratulations to the Devil!
Oh yes we do have the choice of obeying God or a law that criminalizes God's law, if we want to make use of one of the freedoms that used to be ours and open a business that in any way caters to marriage. Poor Melissa Klein, she dreamed all her life of doing wedding cakes and now she can't. You keep pretending that denying us that right isn't a case of legal tyranny but it most certainly is. And it's only the opening wedge.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 2:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1108 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 2:22 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1108 of 1309 (742145)
11-17-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1107 by Faith
11-17-2014 2:12 PM


Re: Congratulations to the Devil!
Melissa Klein can still make all the wedding cakes she wants and even refuse to bake cakes only for one eyed leppers with big ears.
But Millissa Klein and a company, a business, are two different entities entirely. A business cannot say "You can buy anything but a wedding cake" or "You can buy anything in the store except at the white counter" or "You can ride anywhere on the bus as long as you don't sit in the front with the white folk" or "You can have a drink of water as long as you don't drink from the white faucet" or "Help wanted, no Irish need apply" or ""You can come in as long as you don't use the front door"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1107 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 2:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 2:32 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1109 of 1309 (742147)
11-17-2014 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1108 by jar
11-17-2014 2:22 PM


Re: Congratulations to the Devil!
Melissa Klein wanted to have a business for selling wedding cakes and she did have it for a while until the Devil's targeting of Christians picked her out and took it away from her. You seem to feel quite free to tell other people how they should feel about having their life's dream taking out from under them for no fault of their own. All this could have been prevented if the law allowed Christians their freedom of conscience and recognized it at least as the historically valid position it's always been, as the Sixth District Circuit Court more or less did in ruling for gay marriage bans in four states. But the Supreme Court is very likely to strike it down in favor of Caesar when it comes to them next year.
Like I've been saying the law has been twisted, things are equated which should not be equated, good is put for evil and evil for good and worshiping Caesar instead of God is becoming more and more the law of the land. Congratulations to the Devil, he's done his job well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 2:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1110 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 2:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1112 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 3:02 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1110 of 1309 (742148)
11-17-2014 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Faith
11-17-2014 2:32 PM


Re: Congratulations to the Devil!
Try truth Faith.
Melissa Klein wanted to have a business for selling wedding cakes and she did have it for a while until the Devil's targeting of Christians picked her out and took it away from her.
Bullshit Faith.
It was not Christians that were targeted but only bigots and companies that violate the law.
You seem to feel quite free to tell other people how they should feel about having their life's dream taking out from under them for no fault of their own.
No, I do not tell anyone how they should feel but rather only that a company can not discriminate. I am quite sure she does feel bad and I'm sorry she feels that way, but the problem was most definitely of her own making and her own fault.
Slavery was historically valid. Separate but equal was historically valid. No Irish need apply was historically valid. No Jews allowed was historically valid.
But they are still illegal.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 2:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1111 by Faith, posted 11-17-2014 2:55 PM jar has not replied

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