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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 586 of 2241 (739875)
10-28-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 3:37 PM


Sounds like you've never experienced the spiritual revelation of the truth and been, "born again" of the Holy Spirit, then. Perhaps that time is overdue then, to make that decision, rather than stay ignorant about the truth? Out of interest, have you ever experienced any of the spiritual claims made in the New Testament? Have you ever spoke in tongues, or had the presence of God fall upon you, or had amazingly answered prayers? Have you ever felt the peace of His presence? Has He ever made known to you His will for your life, and have you watched Him work it out?
Yes, I have had amazing spiritual experiences.
One thing I always wonder though: How do you know that it isn't the devil tricking you?
Like, speaking in tongues. I've seen it, I've heard it: Its bullshit.
Why should I not believe that the people who speak in tongues are either deluding themselves or being tricked by the devil?
For all purposes, you are basically saying this to me, "mike, come on man, we all know atheism is true, and materialist philosophy, this God-business is just a bit of fluff in my head".
lol - what was all that you were saying about the writer knowing the pragmatics of their statements and how others shouldn't equivocate them?
I'm not an atheist and I don't think this God-business is just a bit of fluff in your head.
Well, the stuff about knowing the truth, sure, that's self-delusion, but not all of it.
Then don't pretend to not be an atheist, is my recommendation.
But I'm not an atheist. And who would I be praying to?
Claim head-theism,
Why would I claim something that you made up?
based on human reasoning,
Human reasoning is the only reasoning I am capable of.
and admit you live according to human reason/wisdom, not God's wisdom,
I do both.
and you put secular science before God.
Before? Nah, they're tangential. Science alludes God's creation.
Besides, it's a false dichotomy anyway, "Is the bible the inerrant word of God or words of men". It can actually be BOTH, if God knows how to move men to do what He wants, to achieve His will. He surely can. Anyone who knows Him, like I do - knows this about Him. But obviously the words of ignorance are easy to spot, for someone who genuinely believes.
Well this is what the actual topic is...
As I said, I suppose that the Bible is the word of God but it is hard to tell. I have no evidence that it is.
You seem to be saying that you do know it is the word of God and you know this by some kind of "magic", or something.
Is that all, then? Or do you have any evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 3:37 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 4:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 587 of 2241 (739877)
10-28-2014 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 3:37 PM


mike the wiz writes:
Sounds like you've never experienced the spiritual revelation of the truth and been, "born again" of the Holy Spirit, then.
But then you make the leap from there right to an inerrant Bible. There is no reason to do that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 3:37 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 588 of 2241 (739878)
10-28-2014 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 3:37 PM


Then don't pretend to not be an atheist
Ya know, that's actually kind of insulting.
You have a tacit assumption in there that if I don't follow your particular brand of Christianity, then I don't believe in a God at all.
That's hubris, Mike. Don't be a jerk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 3:37 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 589 of 2241 (739879)
10-28-2014 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by New Cat's Eye
10-28-2014 3:54 PM


Your argument is this: "No, I haven't experienced it, but I saw or heard something I would call B.S." Perhaps you heard, "babble" - how then can you know you saw or heard it?
What does that have to do with anything - am I supposed to rewind the videotape in your mind, to know what was, the "bullshit" you heard? Am I going to call the genuine article, "B.S."
Look, if you are born-again, great. I was asking in order to get an idea if you know God. You don't talk like you do, which is just an impression I get, but sure - I can be wrong, I have to "go on something" though don't I?
I'm not an atheist and I don't think this God-business is just a bit of fluff in your head.
But if the Holy Spirit is real, and I really have spoke in tongues, then you have just called something to do with the Holy Spirit, "bullshit" if it really is genuine. That would concern me greatly if I had done that - because for me I would fear saying something false about God. You see, it's strange that your posts are so belligerent towards me as a fellow-believers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2014 3:54 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-29-2014 9:40 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 590 of 2241 (739916)
10-29-2014 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 589 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 4:12 PM


Your argument is this: "No, I haven't experienced it,
lol - what was all that you were saying about the writer knowing the pragmatics of their statements and how others shouldn't equivocate them?
Where did I say that I have not experienced it? I said that I have experienced it.
You are very bad a paraphrasing other's arguments.
but I saw or heard something I would call B.S." Perhaps you heard, "babble" - how then can you know you saw or heard it?
The people who were doing it were just as convinced as you are that they were being moved by the Holy Spirit.
Yet it was clearly bullshit. And if I saw you speaking in tongues, I'd probably call bullshit on that too.
I was asking in order to get an idea if you know God.
People who think that they "know God" are deluding themselves or being tricked by the devil.
Seriously, how could you tell the difference?
Now, I'll grant that God would have the power to do that. But that's just the "magic" defence.
How could you really know?
You don't talk like you do, which is just an impression I get, but sure - I can be wrong, I have to "go on something" though don't I?But if the Holy Spirit is real, and I really have spoke in tongues, then you have just called something to do with the Holy Spirit, "bullshit" if it really is genuine. That would concern me greatly if I had done that - because for me I would fear saying something false about God.
It is incredibly easy to self-delude yourself.
I mean, I could have came back here and replied: Mike! Last night I prayed to God about this and he answered. He explained how you were right and the Holy Spirit really did make you speak in tongues. I was so moved that I was born-again and am now an evangelical Christian. Praise the Lord! Thank you Mike! Hooray!
If you believed me, you would probably get excited by that. And then we could feed off each others emotions and get all kinds of warm and fuzzy as we share our experiences in knowing God.
You'd be convinced that you saved another soul, and you'd have that much more evidence for the fact that you know God.
And yet, it would all be bullshit. Incredibly easy. But bullshit nonetheless.
You see, it's strange that your posts are so belligerent towards me as a fellow-believers.
You reap what you sow.
Anyways, do you have anything to say about the topic?
How do you know that the Bible is the inerrant word of God? Do you have any reason at all that couldn't be referred to as "magic"?
For example: "I know God and he told me so" counts as magic.
So what do you got?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 4:12 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 591 of 2241 (739970)
10-30-2014 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 3:37 PM


mike the wiz writes:
Sounds like you've never experienced the spiritual revelation of the truth and been, "born again" of the Holy Spirit, then. Perhaps that time is overdue then, to make that decision, rather than stay ignorant about the truth? Out of interest, have you ever experienced any of the spiritual claims made in the New Testament? Have you ever spoke in tongues, or had the presence of God fall upon you, or had amazingly answered prayers? Have you ever felt the peace of His presence? Has He ever made known to you His will for your life, and have you watched Him work it out? Sounds like you're basically a head-theism. I am guessing because of Catholic upbringing. I was never born again when I was a Catholic, nor did I get anything from it. Very few genuinely are born-again in reality, as can be seen by their many strange religious, man-made beliefs, POST-bible, "factoids"
This post represents the true picture of fundamentalism. Just read through it yourself mike. It is all about YOU - YOUR peace- YOUR great experiences of God - YOUR answered prayer etc. YOU rejected Catholicism because YOU didn't get anything out of it. It is all about YOU believing the right things so that YOU can get God to do what YOU want Him to.
It is the same thing that Jesus rejected in His own people. They had been trying to get God to do what they wanted Him to do by legalistically following a set of laws. You are doing exactly the same thing except that instead of the circumcision, sabbath laws, food laws etc you have your faith and belief laws. You have essentially turned faith into a work and it has again become works righteousness.
Yes, I believe that God hopes we'll be born again but I question if someone thinks that being born again is simply so that they get to live forever and have great spiritual experiences. Read the Bible. The idea is that we are called to be born again so that out hearts are made less about us and more about others and all of creation for that matter. It is about a changed heart so that we are better equipped to humbly take God's love, peace, forgiveness, justice etc to the world. We are born again for a purpose and that purpose is not so that we get God on our side it is so that we are on side with Him so that we can serve His creation. Remember, Jesus was a servant King washing the disciples feet. We are called to be a servant people loving our neighbour by serving His creation.
The brand of Christianity that you and Faith appear to espouse is much closer to what the Pharisees taught than what Jesus taught, and as I repeat ad nauseum is that it is Biblianity and not Christianity or at least not the Christianity that Jesus taught and lived.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 3:37 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by Faith, posted 10-30-2014 2:29 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 592 of 2241 (739988)
10-30-2014 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by GDR
10-30-2014 10:10 AM


deleted: forgot I'd left this thread.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by GDR, posted 10-30-2014 10:10 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by GDR, posted 10-30-2014 7:55 PM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 593 of 2241 (740013)
10-30-2014 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Faith
10-30-2014 2:29 PM


The Westminster Catechism says that the chief end of man is that we glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
How do we glorify Him. Do we do it by singing praises in church, (which I agree is a good thing but only a small part of worship), or do we much more fully worship Him by serving Him in our reflection of His love and care to creation. The worship in church is a means to an end as it facilitates us serving Him in community.
I know that you aren't keen on using human reasoning to understand the nature of God but I ask you, which do you believe to be the truest form of worship?
1/ Singing praises in church.
2/ Attending a Bible study.
3/ Volunteering in a homeless shelter.
A hint would be in Matthew 25 where it talks about the least of His children.
Yes, we are meant to enjoy Him forever. See Psalm 37.
quote:
4Delightyourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.5Commit your way to the LORD; trust in himand he will do this:
The point being if that you trust God then His ways of love become your ways then that is where you will find your joy and truly enjoy Him forever.
Paul says this in Corinthians 1 Corinthians 4:5
quote:
Thereforejudgenothing beforetheappointed time; wait tilltheLord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will exposethemotives of men'shearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
It is all about the motives of our hearts not our theology and it isn't our business about who winds up where, (whatever where means in this instance), in the next life. Personally I'll leave the judging to God.
Edited by GDR, : typo
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Faith, posted 10-30-2014 2:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by Faith, posted 10-30-2014 11:13 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 595 by deerbreh, posted 11-05-2014 1:38 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 594 of 2241 (740028)
10-30-2014 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by GDR
10-30-2014 7:55 PM


deleted: forgot again.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by GDR, posted 10-30-2014 7:55 PM GDR has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 595 of 2241 (740506)
11-05-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by GDR
10-30-2014 7:55 PM


Topic: Is the Bible the inerrant word of God?
This all appears to be pretty far afield from the actual topic.
It seems to me if we are discussing catechisms and true forms of worship we are no longer discussing the merits of whether the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
But what do I know? I am not a moderator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by GDR, posted 10-30-2014 7:55 PM GDR has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 596 of 2241 (741895)
11-15-2014 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by mike the wiz
10-26-2014 5:39 AM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Man took from the tree. Now to "get back", He wants the heart. He wants us to, by freewill, humble ourselves and say, "okay, I was wrong, SHOW ME."
Been there, did that, all I got was crickets.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2014 5:39 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 597 of 2241 (741896)
11-15-2014 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by mike the wiz
10-26-2014 6:19 AM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
But Percy will answer that other religions say the same thing. You know, I don't think they do but I can't prove that either.
I'd say that dying for your religion rather proves your sincerity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2014 6:19 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by ringo, posted 11-16-2014 2:05 PM tsig has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


(1)
Message 598 of 2241 (741898)
11-15-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by Phat
10-27-2014 10:24 AM


Re: What Are We Trying To Prove, Anyway?
Think about it? who claims to have made the earth, made man on it, formed the eye, planted the ear, see the heart of man, have omniscience, omnipotence, transcendance, immutability and sovereignty, and "be love" itself? All of these claims SATISFY those who seek God. So I can't see how any comparison can be drawn. Quite simply, if God isn't the God of the bible, then He has made it overwhelmingly look like he is, to the world, which would make no sense. also it's the only book that explains our sin-nature, and tells us why the world is the way it is, and the only book to claim we are unique to the animals, as our consciousness clearly is, that we are made in God's image. These things are not comparable to the shallow god-of-thunder, "Thor", who gives no answers to anything. Yet Dawkins would compare our God to Thor?!? Lol!
Thor has a hammer, Jesus got nailed.
Winner, Thor!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by Phat, posted 10-27-2014 10:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 599 of 2241 (741899)
11-15-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Phat
10-27-2014 1:03 PM


Re: What Are We Trying To Prove, Anyway?
I can show you the water. Its your choice whether to drink it or not. Denying that your thirst will be quenched is of course your decision
I thought god had something to do with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Phat, posted 10-27-2014 1:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 600 of 2241 (742035)
11-16-2014 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by tsig
11-15-2014 1:05 PM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
tsig writes:
I'd say that dying for your religion rather proves your sincerity
It may indicate that you sincerely believe in your religion; it does not in any way indicate that there's any truth to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by tsig, posted 11-15-2014 1:05 PM tsig has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Faith, posted 11-16-2014 2:38 PM ringo has replied

  
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