The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.

But the Nation, the US, came out stronger and wealthier than before the war. Remember Faith's claim was that the US Civil War was an example of God's Wrath on the nation for slavery.

You and I have discussed interpretation of religion and dogma many times, and I see this as an opportunity to do so yet again. Critics would ask how we have any way of knowing how GOD thinks, what His wrath might entail, and what sort of things we would have to do in order to tick Him off.Lets start with the simple premise that God is Love. I would argue that God is Good, whereas others may argue that God is Complete---being both good and evil. I tend to see evil---even though created and/or allowed to exist by God as a choice that is not to our advantage to make.Wrath is the result of human disobedience. Some argue that AIDS was an example of Gods wrath and judgement on society but I see it as a natural disease run amok. Some could argue, however, that death and destruction-in general-came about after the Fall.What is the definition of wrath? Does free will allow for the knowledge of good and evil and the responsibility to avoid wrath? Wrath(Websters)
: strong vengeful anger or indignation: retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement

For one thing, you are discounting China and Russia. I only discounted Russia. I don't see any good reason to discount China. Or Russia either.On the other hand, I note that bad things happened to Job and his family without God's wrath being involved.

Seems that people can manipulate figures to get any result they want. Phat removing China and Russia from the Allies is self serving and there is not rational basis for it. They were allies against the Axis, plain and simple. I am sure there is some sort of feeling that Commies should not be counted as an ally, but China was not a godless commie state at that time.
Ignorance may be bliss but is no way to build a basis for an argument.Edited by Theodoric, : Reworded first sentence

Once again this is the conclusion you come to when you worship an inerrant Bible instead of Jesus. Jesus, (and Paul for that matter), certainly would have opposed slavery in the US but He would have been just as opposed to the civil war.Jesus lived in a country that virtually enslaved His fellow Jews and what did He do about it. He said love your enemy, turn the other cheek etc. His message was that the way you encounter injustice including slavery that we are to use God's message of peace and love.It isn't always that clear about what the answer is to be but that is where we are called by Jesus to start. For example when we look at this war on ISIS how do we apply that message? Dropping bombs on people is not loving the ISIS fighters but maybe it is loving to those who are being persecuted by them. All we can do is to do our best to prayerfully work out a loving solution.The Civil War was only God's judgement in the sense that it is the natural consequence of turning away from the commandment to love our neighbours as ourselves. Maybe the north should have purchased slaves and freed them. Maybe they should have provided safe places for slaves to escape to. Maybe they should have evangelized with the teachings of Jesus in the south where in many cases they espoused Christianity but them misused it in the way that fundamentalists or inerrantists do today.Just maybe the Civil War was just another power grab with slavery being just another side issue.

I don't support Faith's position. But it is impossible to argue that the south did not get the worst end of the war. Losing had tremendous repercussions.In some sense, the South never completely recovered from its beating. King Cotton was dead, and entire caste system was outlawed, and large portions of the south never figured out a substitute. A number of the deepest Southern states are among the poorest, leas educated, sucking off of the federal teat states in the Union.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

I don't want to make this a referendum on the civil war. I think that there is actually an open thread in which we can do that. But the idea that slavery was just a side issue is complete, Lost Cause, horse ca-ca.I see that you are Canadian. No harm done.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Abraham Lincoln himself believed it was God's judgment for slavery, as I quoted him saying in his second inaugural address in [Msg=4], along with many Christians of his day and since. He even quoted the Bible. Perhaps if he were still around you'd lecture him about it too?

I know he's on Mount Rushmore and all, but Lincoln is not exactly known as a world class theologian.

Neither were any of the American founders "worldclass theologians" but they all knew their Bible and had sat under Christian preaching all their lives and all of them quoted the Bible on many occasions as the best guide for the nation. This despite the fact that some of them weren't really Christians. But a Deist in those days wasn't what we think of as a Deist today. They believed that God was involved in the nation, they advocated prayer for instance and understood that God's laws ruled in this world. So did Abraham Lincoln, and they all say basic things all Christians agree with. Except perhaps modern "liberal" Christians.

So your claim is that we can distinguish between real Christians and liberals by their acceptance of this Civil War, wrath of God position?You actually believe that this is a mainstream Christian position? Much is explained...

Lincoln's position is standard orthodox Christianity. So was Jefferson's when he said: this: which is basically the same thing Lincoln was saying about God's judging the nation for slavery. Jefferson's complete statement is here:

Hmmm... so now we are to take the word of Lincoln over the words and life of Jesus.I think it is a huge mistake to merge your faith and your nationalism, (and your politics for that matter), into one.

Lincoln was quoting Jesus in that paragraph.And what an absolutely absurd idea that we shouldn't appreciate the correct understanding of Christian teaching as applied by a leader of the nation. Two leaders quoted so far. And I may be able to dig up more. Absurd.

Lincoln was not quoting Jesus but simply saying God wants all men to be free. Of course I believe that too. However, there is nothing in what Lincoln said in that quote that justifies the Civil War. He says that all men should be free. There are alternatives to accomplishing that other than war.So you believe that because Lincoln was president that we should take his word as gospel. I assume you would apply that to President Obama as well. Actually Obama in, (i think it was his acceptance speech but I'm not sure), quoted the Bible with the quote that I use as a signature.