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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 600 of 969 (739445)
10-23-2014 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Genomicus
10-23-2014 8:23 PM


Re: You're ducking
You still have not answered the question:
What date do you put for the origin of modern humans?
And upon what do you base your answer?
I'm not quite sure if it's conducive to the clarity of this discussion to go off on slightly different topics/debating points, instead of focusing on the particular argument that he/she put forward. IMHO.
I disagree.
If the poster will admit to a belief in modern humans coming into existence about 6,000 years ago, then we know that we can dismiss all of his arguments as being based on religion and being diametrically opposed to what science has found. That means we don't need to waste our time posting evidence, as no amount of evidence we post will make any difference.
A date for modern humans about 6,000 years ago means that any and all discussions of the specifics of genetics by this poster will be based on beliefs, with no necessary relation to scientific evidence. Those posts will be apologetics, rather than science.
I think this is an important point to establish. Likewise the poster thinks this is an important point to dodge, lest his whole approach be revealed.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Genomicus, posted 10-23-2014 8:23 PM Genomicus has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 632 of 969 (739516)
10-24-2014 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by zaius137
10-24-2014 3:12 PM


Re: PRATT: The Bunny Blunder Strikes Again!
Perhaps, if you have just a minute, you could tell us when you believe modern humans originated??

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by zaius137, posted 10-24-2014 3:12 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 645 of 969 (739531)
10-24-2014 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by zaius137
10-24-2014 6:01 PM


Human origins
Since you are reluctant to answer my question as to when you think modern humans had their origin, I can only assume you believe it was about 6,000 years ago and are trying to hide that fact.
And that your questionable mathematics is just a back-door way to try to argue for such a young age.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by zaius137, posted 10-24-2014 6:01 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 659 of 969 (739554)
10-24-2014 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by zaius137
10-24-2014 10:43 PM


Re: Squatting in a mud hut and wiping with a leaf
Your posts are too wordy, just condense the thought
You have never answered my question. How can human population growth hover around zero for 50,000 years with an initial population of 10,000. This is ridiculous and in need of explanation.
Here is a short post, hopefully short enough for you.
Modern humans are far older than 6,000 years.
I'll be glad to provide evidence if you want.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by zaius137, posted 10-24-2014 10:43 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 707 of 969 (739754)
10-27-2014 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by zaius137
10-27-2014 1:17 PM


Re: Recent origins
If a individual was determined to be an ancestor of 500,000 tears ago they might only be as recent as 5,000 years.
I figured you'd be getting to modern man originating around 6,000 years ago sooner or later.
And I suppose that you'll be telling us next that all of our radiometric dating methods are wrong too?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by zaius137, posted 10-27-2014 1:17 PM zaius137 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by NoNukes, posted 10-27-2014 4:10 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 728 of 969 (739799)
10-28-2014 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 726 by zaius137
10-28-2014 12:05 AM


Re: Recent origins or ignoring evidence ...
I'm still waiting for some response to my several posts concerning your belief in a young origin for modern humans.
You seem to be trying to hide the fact that you really believe modern humans had their origin about 6,000 years ago.
How, then do you account for the fact that we have mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) from a skeleton in southern Alaska that is 10,300 years old? Or another skeleton from western Montana that is 12,600 years old? And both are of the same haplotype as living individuals all down the coasts of North and South America? (And that's not all.)
What these two examples show is that there is no origin for modern humans ca. 6,000 years ago and certainly no global flood ca. 4,350 years ago.
Even my own research shows there was no global flood ca. 4,350 years ago. I have recovered mtDNA from a skeleton dated 5,300 years old that is directly related to individuals still living in this part of the western US. This shows there could not have been a flood more recently as that would have ended that haplotype.
So, if you are going to continue to advocate a young origin for modern humans, you had better start presenting some solid data. Your faux math has not done very well so far.
And continuing to ignore my posts does not do your cause much good. Evidence is evidence, and it won't go away if you bury your head in the sand.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by zaius137, posted 10-28-2014 12:05 AM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by zaius137, posted 10-28-2014 12:50 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 752 of 969 (739903)
10-29-2014 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 730 by zaius137
10-28-2014 12:50 AM


Re: Recent origins or ignoring evidence ...
We need to talk about your points, but since I am the Creationist here (population 1). Can we stay on the immediate topic. I think that time will bring us back to your points.
I see you folks going on and on about various aspects of population dynamics, with you trying to set the groundwork for a 6,000 year old modern human. And failing.
But you must realize that science is a cohesive whole and you can't just pull at one thread and hope to unravel the entire construct.
The evidence is absolutely against a young earth and a young human species, and it is rather unseemly for you to ignore all of that evidence and try to pursue just one very narrow approach which you think can support your beliefs. You can't just ignore huge amounts of evidence!
And to keep this post directly tied into the theme of the thread: Evolution is so controversial because a small number of folks won't accept it, for religious, not scientific, reasons, and run around making a big stink. They have no evidence supporting their positions, as you are demonstrating, but make up for that lack by religious zeal and stubborn denial of the evidence that contradicts their beliefs.
In other words, you can't keep ducking the dating issue as that alone disproves your beliefs.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by zaius137, posted 10-28-2014 12:50 AM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 755 by zaius137, posted 10-29-2014 1:38 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 765 of 969 (739961)
10-30-2014 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by zaius137
10-30-2014 12:30 AM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
quote:
And to keep this post directly tied into the theme of the thread: Evolution is so controversial because a small number of folks won't accept it, for religious, not scientific, reasons, and run around making a big stink. They have no evidence supporting their positions, as you are demonstrating, but make up for that lack by religious zeal and stubborn denial of the evidence that contradicts their beliefs.
Really? I have spent a lot of time running down the evidence for evolution. Science is based on evidence measurable by the scientific method. I am a firm believer in empirical evidence.
I tend to doubt that. You are pursuing one very narrow line of evidence, and posters here have showed you where you are wrong.
And there is a huge amount of evidence out there that you are ignoring--evidence which disproves the beliefs in a young earth and a recent origin for modern humans.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by zaius137, posted 10-30-2014 12:30 AM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by zaius137, posted 10-30-2014 12:06 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 774 of 969 (740026)
10-30-2014 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 768 by zaius137
10-30-2014 12:06 PM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
quote:
And there is a huge amount of evidence out there that you are ignoring--evidence which disproves the beliefs in a young earth and a recent origin for modern humans.
My finding is that every time you speculate about a phenomena (particulars of evolution), there is always a alternate or more complete explanation. It is the global view, of all evidence for evolution, that will show evolution not only incomplete but incongruent.
The evidence produced by science that shows an old earth and modern humans originating from earlier forms some 160,000-200,000 years ago fills multiple floors of major libraries as well as hundreds of museums and other similar facilities.
If you have evidence that contradicts this it would be nice if you would present it. And at the same time you present it to various peer-reviewed journals, please consider presenting it here as well.
But be aware that you have to overturn multiple fields of science, and evidence accumulated over several hundred years, so you better make it good. (And check the various PRATT lists for those arguments that have already been refuted.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by zaius137, posted 10-30-2014 12:06 PM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 777 by zaius137, posted 10-31-2014 2:28 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 797 of 969 (740202)
11-02-2014 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 796 by zaius137
11-02-2014 4:36 PM


Re: A mutation is a mutation is a mutation.
Nonsense!
Just to select one: Are you even aware of what the so-called mitochondrial Eve really represents?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by zaius137, posted 11-02-2014 4:36 PM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by zaius137, posted 11-03-2014 1:18 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 803 of 969 (740235)
11-03-2014 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by zaius137
11-03-2014 1:18 AM


Re: A mutation is a mutation is a mutation.
quote:
Just to select one: Are you even aware of what the so-called mitochondrial Eve really represents?
Perfect time to present your understanding. I am familiar with the evo perspective but my personal view differs somewhat.
I don't really care what your personal view is. When we discuss science personal views don't mean anything--it is the evidence that counts.
And the personal views you have been sharing with us, as pointed out by several posters, are contradicted by the evidence.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by zaius137, posted 11-03-2014 1:18 AM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by zaius137, posted 11-03-2014 3:17 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 809 of 969 (740289)
11-03-2014 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by zaius137
11-03-2014 3:17 PM


Re: A mutation is a mutation is a mutation.
quote:
And the personal views you have been sharing with us, as pointed out by several posters, are contradicted by the evidence.
Your [sic] presented evidence so far = 0
Correct, on this subject I have presented no evidence so far. This is not my field. But, as I said, other posters have presented evidence that you are wrong.
And the link you had above on Mitochondrial Eve was to a creationist's website. That kind of website has no credibility in a scientific discussion as creationists are inherently anti-science.
Care to try again?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by zaius137, posted 11-03-2014 3:17 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 920 of 969 (740708)
11-06-2014 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 919 by zaius137
11-06-2014 8:45 PM


Secular scientists????????
You keep mentioning "secular scientists."
Is there any other kind?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 919 by zaius137, posted 11-06-2014 8:45 PM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 922 by zaius137, posted 11-06-2014 10:06 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 923 of 969 (740713)
11-06-2014 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 922 by zaius137
11-06-2014 10:06 PM


Re: Secular scientists????????
quote:
You keep mentioning "secular scientists."
Is there any other kind?
In the spirit of defining the other white meat, yes.
In the spirit of defining the "scientific method," no.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 922 by zaius137, posted 11-06-2014 10:06 PM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 924 by zaius137, posted 11-06-2014 10:24 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 926 of 969 (740720)
11-07-2014 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 924 by zaius137
11-06-2014 10:24 PM


Re: Secular scientists????????
You mean To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning (wiki)
I guess that leaves out the evolutionist by definition.
You can believe in magic, superstition, wishful thinking, old wives tales, folklore, what the stars foretell and what the neighbors think, omens, public opinion, astromancy, spells, Ouija boards, anecdotes, Da Vinci codes, tarot cards, sorcery, seances, sore bunions, black cats, divine revelation, table tipping, witch doctors, crystals and crystal balls, numerology, divination, faith healing, miracles, palm reading, the unguessable verdict of history, magic tea leaves, new age mumbo-jumbo, hoodoo, voodoo and all that other weird stuff.
Me, I'll follow the scientific method.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 924 by zaius137, posted 11-06-2014 10:24 PM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 928 by zaius137, posted 11-07-2014 3:42 AM Coyote has not replied

  
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