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Author | Topic: Question About the Universe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Anyone can speculate about phenomena. It is not the evidence that is contestable (real evidence) it is the interpretation.
But there you are, contesting the validity of evidence by claim that some is not 'real' evidence...
For instance there is at least 300 cosmologies that provide adequate explanation for the existence of the universe without using dark energy or dark matter.
And I'm sure they all merit equal attention...
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
This might need a different thread, but could you give an example or two of archaeological discoveries that correspond...etc.? Atheist little me thought it was fairly cool when C13 dating on the Tunnel of Siloam matched up with historical dating. Do you have any more examples? In what ways have the discoveries of ARCHEOLOGY verified the reliability of the Bible? - ChristianAnswers.Net There's a lot out there, though I'm not sure how much of it is contested by the scientific community. I agree that it's probably another thread, so I'd rather not say anymore about it here.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
I guess I should take that as an admission that no, you cannot provide the logic. You cannot demand that I fill supply what's missing, because it was your claim. You and I just have different definitions of what's logical, I guess. My time is limited, I can't go off on tangents that I'm not really interested in, especially when I"m (as usual) facing a gang.
There have been a number of people who have said that they are spiritual but not religious. I'm not at all sure what that is supposed to mean. Neither am I, I've never been directly confronted by "spiritual atheism", or "spiritual science" in the many hundreds of opponents I've had in discussions like these over the years. I'm not sure if it's a new talking point among atheists/scientists or not - could be open for some big new discussions!
I think, for some people, "spiritual" refers to the human spirit. So people who are not economic materialists, who value friendships and relations, might claim that they are spiritual. I've always thought of "spiritual" as referring to some form of the supernatural, completely disconnected from testability and proveability and all of that, but the word may be more slippery than I thought - I may stand correction on it.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
In other words, to you, the germ theory of disease was an example of science "dismissing spirituality". By your standards, Pre-Columbian archaeology "dismisses spirituality" by daring to contradict the Book of Mormon. Well no, I never mentioned germ theory, and I don't even believe in the Book of Mormon. I was just referring to the general way that the scientific community has always gone after Christianity, particularly the book of Genesis.
Of course in reality it is entirely possible to be spiritual while disagreeing with other people's "spiritual" views - although I have to wonder just how "spiritual" they really are if they're largely about the material world. I agree, I wonder if the word "spiritual" is the proper word to describe humanistic meditations and other secular philosophies.
Do you, for instance, refuse to take a position on the age of the universe to avoid contradicting the spiritual beliefs of Hindu ? I care nothing about Hindu - I refuse to take a position on the age of the earth because I'm not interested in that subject. My position on it doesn't affect my life, and the word of God doesn't address it.
Or do you "dismiss spirituality" by refusing to "respect" those beliefs ? If I take no firm position on it (no position on it can be proven) then I'm not disrespecting anyone's beliefs.
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 3440 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
Good post... Cheers!
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
You've got it from what's inside your head. For instance, Sam Harris has been writing about spiritualism and morality for years - he meditates and has studies Buddhism. He's also just published this book: quote: As I said, I've never been confronted with atheistic or scientific spirituality. Harris "has been waiting for more than a decade" - did he initiate the spirituality thing among secularists? Is this a new thing for Harris and Dawkins followers? As far as I know Harris specialty is more atheism than science, did he start this and the scientific community quickly jump on board? That wouldn't surprise me, the scientific community seems to quickly pick up on what atheists do, and vice-versa. Again, this could spawn all sorts of new topic proposals, but my time is limited these days.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
Spirituality is not synonymous with belief in God. But I'm still not convinced that "spirituality" is the proper word for anything that can be falsified or tested.
Yeah, right. There's as much a body that controls science as one that controls religion. I can't go along with that - there's no "national academy of religion", that has peer review or anything like it. (in the U.S. at least) science is a subject that can be "established", as one example, taught as fact in public schools. There are organizations that largely control what is taught. One religion can't haul another religion into court and legally shout it down, like the scientific community did with Intelligent design.
Why don't you get on plumber's and electrician manuals for not showing respect for "spiritual or moral laws." It would make as much sense. There are no best selling books out called "Plumbings Dangerous Idea", or "How Electircal Current Shows That God Does Not Exist", though I should probably be careful, Sam Harris might get some ideas, take a crash course in those subjects, and try to write books with those titles. The problem is, they wouldn't become best sellers, because those subjects aren't taught with an atheist bent like todays' science is.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
It is instead religious dogma, held by a minority of the people on earth, that creates the fairly laughable position you exhibit here and in any number of other threads. I just enjoy watching the dances, the way the scientific followers snap back and fourth between being a "disinterested pursuit of knowledge", to "weakening the hold of religion", and trying to distance themselves from one or the other, depending on the argument. Quite laughable.
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 3440 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
The age of the universe is ~13.4 billion years, yet we can view objects as far as 47 billion light years away. That proposition is based on the current expanding universe, which relies on dark energy, which relies on a hypothetical form of energy. The density of dark energy (1.67 10−27 kg/m3) is very low (wiki) it has two popular hypothetical possibilities: quintessence and a cosmological constant, the latter was disavowed by Einstein.
Is quintessence the hand of God?
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
The age of the universe is ~13.4 billion years, yet we can view objects as far as 47 billion light years away. A google search does not show objects being observed 47 billion light years away. Perhaps you can find a source for that claim? And in any case, all of those numbers are greater than 6,000 years, which is what you seem to be trying to document in other posts.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: In other words "respecting spirituality" only refers to respecting YOUR beliefs. Which include things which can be "measured and tested" and therefore by your words below probably shouldn't be counted as "spiritual" at all. Science has not especially gone after Christianity. A branch of Christianity (to use a loose definition of Christianity) is going after science because it objects to the discoveries science has made.
quote: And yet they obviously fit the concept of spirituality much better than the age of the Earth, for instance.
quote: And yet it is a good example of scientists disagreeing with "Christian" views. And often presented as an example of scientists "going after Christianity". I think we can say that the idea that if scientists did not "dismiss spirituality" they would give special respect to YOUR views is so obviously false that even you can see it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
So you just enjoy lying about people who dare to prove you wrong.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
marc writes: As I said, I've never been confronted with atheistic or scientific spirituality. Harris "has been waiting for more than a decade" - did he initiate the spirituality thing among secularists? Is this a new thing for Harris and Dawkins followers? As far as I know Harris specialty is more atheism than science, did he start this and the scientific community quickly jump on board? That wouldn't surprise me, the scientific community seems to quickly pick up on what atheists do, and vice-versa. Again, this could spawn all sorts of new topic proposals, but my time is limited these days. No, you said that atheists dismiss spirituality and gave us a list of those you've studied that have done so. I'm pointing out to you that a) you're wrong, b) that I don't belive you've read a thing any of them have written beyond snippets from creationist nonsense and c) that Sam Harris has always thought that spirituality is an important part of human life and culture. You're making up stuff you prefer to believe about atheists - as you have just done in your reply above. Be honest with yourself.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The big bang has become so ad-hoc that it is now a tautology amongst scientists. Do you actually think this statement has any meaningful content? Do you know what ad-hoc means? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I just enjoy watching the dances, the way the scientific followers snap back and fourth between being a "disinterested pursuit of knowledge", to "weakening the hold of religion", and trying to distance themselves from one or the other, depending on the argument. Quite laughable. Seriously, dude. Nobody gives a hoot about what you believe when they peer through a telescope and write down what they see. Your belief otherwise is just paranoia. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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