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Author Topic:   Random or just incomplete information?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 44 (738547)
10-11-2014 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dogmafood
10-11-2014 3:14 PM


Re: Does the causal chain continue?
I always thought that randomness was only a reflection on our ability to predict and not a condition where things happened without a cause.
Both of those things can result in random or random appearing results. Coin flips are random because of our inability to control all variables, while particle decay is random for completely different reasons. I seem to recall Son Goku doing most of the talking about randomness and quantum mechanics, but I may have forgotten Cat Sci's input.
So yes it makes good sense to me that causality goes all the way down but I have been told to ignore my sensibilities in this case.
I'd find such a result very surprising. I don't know how we could opine on its feasibility.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dogmafood, posted 10-11-2014 3:14 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 44 (738648)
10-13-2014 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2014 11:42 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
If we could know the exact position of the balls, and the exact state of the machine, we would be able to predict the exact trajectory of the balls, but we can't so we can't.
What you are describing is simply determinism.
The Bohm interpretation allows determination while still complying with the Bell inequalities. As best as I understand the explanation, you would need to know the state of the entire universe in order to completely determine a quantum system. It seems to me that any causation that could be extracted from this formulation would be completely unconventional. It would still be impossible to learn when an atom was going to decay by probing deeply into the 'innards' of the nucleus.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 11:42 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 3:59 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 44 (738665)
10-13-2014 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2014 3:59 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Is that different from what I said?
Did you mean for the 'machine' in your pin ball example to refer to the configuration of the entire universe? If not, then what we said was not the same. Your example says only that the pin ball machine is deterministic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 3:59 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 10:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 44 (738689)
10-14-2014 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2014 10:22 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Yes. And the wiring makes its behavior non-local.
Perhaps then my comment can be read as pointing out that you did not say anything about the details you now mention, nor could your post be easily interpreted as implying them.
Your example simply mentioned knowing the state of the 'machine' and the balls. What distinguishes that statement from a description of classical mechanics?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 10:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 12:20 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 44 (738714)
10-14-2014 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2014 12:20 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
I guess classical mechanics would be more akin to the balls bouncing about on a flat featureless plane. But perhaps I am overextending the metaphor.
Maybe not. I see where you are going with it. I imagine a machine where the position and action of the bumpers represents non-locality as opposed to the standard machine where the bumpers are where they are and do pretty much standard stuff when a ball hits them. On the other hand you imagine just having bumpers at all as providing distinction from classical behavior. Not sure there's anything wrong with your approach.
I admit to not understanding the Bohm interpretation well enough to comment any further and the reading I've done since you posted on the topic hasn't seemed to provide me with much insight. All of the rules we know about forces and fields are local, which causes me to have issues accepting this formulation, but critiquing it on any substantial basis isn't something I can do.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 12:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 4:04 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 28 by Dogmafood, posted 10-15-2014 6:17 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 44 (739055)
10-19-2014 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation, his take on things seems downright mundane.
The problem is that non-locality is not even remotely mundane. And on top of that, you still cannot use Bohm's interpretation to predict when a nucleus will decay.
I'll agree that we're just shifting around weirdness, but the resulting weirdness from Bohm's interpretation is still right in your face. I don't see any way to say that it is less weird than Copenhagen.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 4:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-19-2014 11:16 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 44 (739078)
10-20-2014 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
10-19-2014 11:16 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
I said compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation it's mundane
I understood your comparison and I responded to it as you stated it.
I suppose this is a matter of opinion. But given the comments about non-locality put forward by Son Goku, I simply cannot see any particular weird-avoidance advantage for the Bohm Interpretation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-19-2014 11:16 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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