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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 466 of 479 (735186)
08-06-2014 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 10:25 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Intellectually, you knew it’s just two pieces of steel, but you saw the impact it had on so many people, and you also knew it was more than steel,
Yes, he recognizes that it has significance to other people. Even I recognize that. What was your point in using this example (that you didn't even properly cite)?
Father Brian says: We had Jews, Muslims, Buddhists. People who believed or didn’t believe
Close. But not quite. That quote could mean that there happened to be "Jews, Muslims, Buddhists. People who believed or didn’t believe" at the site helping out.
Neither of those two examples show non-Christians finding this cross to be personally significant.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 10:25 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 7:28 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 467 of 479 (735188)
08-06-2014 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by hooah212002
08-06-2014 7:22 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
What was your point in using this example (that you didn't even properly cite)?
It was an example of a non-Christian that identified with the cross and held it as significant.
I didn't even need it, though, as my argument stands without it. I was just trying to do something other than be combative. Ya know, for your feelings n'stuff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by hooah212002, posted 08-06-2014 7:22 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by hooah212002, posted 08-06-2014 8:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 468 of 479 (735189)
08-06-2014 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 7:28 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
It was an example of a non-Christian that identified with the cross and held it as significant.
But it wasn't an example of that and I stated why that was the case. He simply recognized that other people held it as significant.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 7:28 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 469 of 479 (735190)
08-06-2014 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 10:19 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Are you saying that the museum officials are lying? That they are trying to skirt the Constitution and include a purely religious artifact into a secular museum and are committing perjury to the courts in order to save face?
I don't think the officials are lying. But if the were, that would not be the first time that a state agency lied about their intent to get something past the Establishment Clause. Surely you remember the Dover trial?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 10:19 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by jar, posted 08-06-2014 10:09 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33963
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 470 of 479 (735191)
08-06-2014 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by NoNukes
08-06-2014 9:26 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Of course that assumes the exhibit could in anyway possibly be establishment of a State Religion and I think anyone except someone totally disconnected from reality would see that the exhibit in no way establishes a State Religion.
If it offends some folk that is fine. In fact we need far more tolerance of offensive material.
Edited by jar, : appalin grammer

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 9:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2014 2:46 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8896
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 471 of 479 (735193)
08-07-2014 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 10:19 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:
Are you saying that the museum officials are lying? That they are trying to skirt the Constitution and include a purely religious artifact into a secular museum and are committing perjury to the courts in order to save face?
Nope - they don't need to lie they're not talking about facts that can be checked, it's a philosophical discussion. They just need to create an alternative story - transparently obvious though it is - 'cos everyone in the process wants the result that they got. (Except a few atheists, and who listens to them in the USA?)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 10:19 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 9:40 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 472 of 479 (735194)
08-07-2014 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by jar
08-06-2014 10:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Of course that assumes the exhibit could in anyway possibly be establishment of a State Religion and I think anyone except someone totally disconnected from reality would see that the exhibit in no way establishes a State Religion.
You are right. The exhibit does not establish a state religion. But the Establishment Claus, at least for now, disallows a lot more than that.
Still, you aren't alone in your view. You've managed to latch onto Justice Scalia's crabbed interpretation of the first amendment under which just about anything short of forcing people to attend a particular church at gun point is just fine. So far, Scalia has only been able to convince one other Justice to join him out on that limb.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by jar, posted 08-06-2014 10:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by jar, posted 08-07-2014 8:32 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33963
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 473 of 479 (735201)
08-07-2014 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by NoNukes
08-07-2014 2:46 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
But I can't see how this exhibit could be considered as an infraction of the Establishment clause in any possible way.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2014 2:46 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 474 of 479 (735205)
08-07-2014 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by Tangle
08-07-2014 2:38 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
They just need to create an alternative story - transparently obvious though it is - 'cos everyone in the process wants the result that they got.
No, all they needed to do was tell the truth - 'cos including the cross is perfectly acceptable and doesn't violate the constitution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2014 2:38 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1596 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 475 of 479 (738659)
10-13-2014 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by mike the wiz
08-01-2014 5:27 PM


Well, obviously I don't mean any genuine disrespect, it is actually a sarcastic example of the true implications of atheism and should be seen that way.
In that case:
"Dearly Beloved, we are gathered here today to celebrate our friends and family getting into heaven and our enemies being sent to hell. What a marvellous thing 9/11 was, bringing our family to God the way it did - thank God and His miracles! God is Great! Everybody here is of course utterly happy as nobody died and we'll be seeing them soon in paradise where we'll live in gold houses. Let us hope this latest Anthrax scare is real this time, proving that God is ready to accept us into his home. In the meantime:
Thank you and please give me $300 so I can buy a new car to glorify God!"
I don't mean any genuine disrespect.
This atheist philosophy, if atheists were true to those implications would likely have to state these things if they are to be truly honest about what they believe.
Funerals are not the time for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth and atheists don't have a monopoly on positive spins at a time of mourning.
They do indeed believe that ultimately there isn't any right or wrong, they have to, so in a sense they don't think what happened in 9/11 was, "ultimately wrong", but I doubt they would tell you that
What happened on 9/11 was not 'ultimately wrong'. It was the real kind of wrong.
in reality I think they do really believe what happened was ultimately wrong.
Not at all. It was a contravention of moral principles that I believe represent one of the fairest ways for humanity to relate to one another. But I'm not ultimate.0
I think this is the problem, people can see that in reality, atheists too can be genuinely good people, that don't really believe the implications of their own philosophy otherwise they would be true to it.
Do you have any reason to suppose I am not true to my philosophy? Do you even know what it is? There is no theist philosophy is there?
They want to show they can care despite not being religious and the reason they do is because they're not just molecules, like their philosophy tells them.
My philosophy tells me emergent properties exist, and thus people are not 'just molecules', otherwise corpses would be people, which they aren't.
The cross represents the penalty Jesus Christ paid for every human being and the lengths God has gone to to prove love is the real deal.
Honesty, for a person who has the power to create the heavens and the earth - and the power to commit global genocide, you'd think schlepping around the arse-end of nowhere while Rome was happening for a few decades performing local miracles for the uneducated and then getting executed before retutrning to heaven is hardly going to any 'lengths'. Compared to his earlier work, it seems kind lacklustre.
Sending a 3ft deep 20 mile radius pile of meat to a starving people would be going to more lengths to prove his love. Numbers 11:31 - as long as he didn't curse them at the same time, of course. Numbers 11:33.
Have rats turned up to the ceremony? Have the plants? Yet even atheists feel a need to portray a contrary action and acknowledge that life does indeed mean more than molecules despite their insane philosophy-of-nothingness because they too have a conscience and are made in the image of God.
To drive the point home. Not being a theist tells you nothing about my philosophy. To demonstrate this: You and Mohammed Atta are/were theists. His philosophy was wildly different than yours, correct?
They deny the cross but would likely want to see justice be done, too, I imagine, according to an all-wise judgement.
Naturally, I'm pro-justice. My desires aren't informative of reality.
The truth is there's a lot we don't understand in this world, but to go so far as to throw a God of love out completely, well - that's just folly if He really is there
Why? Is it conditional love?
we can tell you He is
I can tell you He isn't.
when you have the love of God it is the greatest feeling in the world
I've had religious delusions, there were many plus sides. Included in the downsides were a judgemental simple-minded character coupled with the arrogance that comes from knowing that I was absolutely right and I will one day be vindicated.
We have similar brains, it's likely we've both experienced this 'greatest feeling' and I'm willing to bet so have Muslims, including Atta and Buddhists and Hindus. I don't need to believe in certain stories to experience it, I doubt you do, either.
Those who are genuinely born-again as Christ described can experience this love for themselves, and they will also know that it is the key to everything truly and morally good and right.
Unfortunately Christ didn't describe it, so anyone who thinks they have achieved being born from on high is potentially deluding themselves with an intoxicated blend of hubris.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by mike the wiz, posted 08-01-2014 5:27 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by petrophysics1, posted 10-13-2014 11:18 PM Modulous has replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 476 of 479 (738669)
10-13-2014 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Modulous
10-13-2014 7:30 PM


Modulous writes:
I've had religious delusions, there were many plus sides. Included in the downsides were a judgemental simple-minded character coupled with the arrogance that comes from knowing that I was absolutely right and I will one day be vindicated.
So nothing has really changed for you. As I've noticed, the atheist and the born again on this board are psychologically the same.
Just a different "Ultimate truth" to pitch and be sure of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Modulous, posted 10-13-2014 7:30 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Stile, posted 10-14-2014 10:44 AM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 478 by Theodoric, posted 10-14-2014 10:51 AM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 479 by Modulous, posted 10-14-2014 12:56 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4218
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 477 of 479 (738680)
10-14-2014 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by petrophysics1
10-13-2014 11:18 PM


petrophysics1 writes:
As I've noticed, the atheist and the born again on this board are psychologically the same.
On this board?
I think you mean across the world
We are all people. There is no single group that holds some obvious grasp on "the answers" for living a happy, fulfilled life.
Just a different "Ultimate truth" to pitch and be sure of.
Exactly.
Which should indicate to us that there is no "ultimate truth." Or, at least, none that we can currently verify to actually be "ultimate" in any meaningful sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by petrophysics1, posted 10-13-2014 11:18 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8111
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 478 of 479 (738681)
10-14-2014 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by petrophysics1
10-13-2014 11:18 PM


As I've noticed, the atheist and the born again on this board are psychologically the same.
Obviously you are incapable of comprehending some fundamental ideas. Atheists are not a monolithic block that have the same beliefs. Are there some atheists that fit into your uninformed, stereotypical idea of them? Yes, I am sure there are. But many more do not.
Please explain what "Ultimate truth" you feel Mod or any atheist has presented?
In the context of what Mod stated, your response seems as if you have missed his point or just feel a need to atheist bash. If you really feel the need to blindly lash out and bash atheists, I am sure there are more appropriate places you can post comments. Try reddit.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by petrophysics1, posted 10-13-2014 11:18 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1596 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 479 of 479 (738693)
10-14-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 476 by petrophysics1
10-13-2014 11:18 PM


So nothing has really changed for you.
Everything and nothing, baby.
First of all most of my religious life was as a young person. I became an atheist in my early 20s, though I didn't call myself that right away. I'm in my mid 30s now. My adult life is considerably different than my child life.
On the other hand, I still enjoy 'spiritual' experiences on a fairly regular basis, and what I believe about them doesn't inhibit them. If anything, knowing that I don't have to be at the mercy of a divine third party, means they might happen more regularly as I don't feel guilty for trying to 'force it'.
If you think that I am in fact arrogant and simple-minded you are more than welcome to do so. I note with amusement that you felt your clichd retort was so awesome you arrogantly believe it didn't require support. What truth do you think that I am 'sure of'?
As I've noticed, the atheist and the born again on this board are psychologically the same.
We call it 'human nature'.
Just a different "Ultimate truth" to pitch and be sure of.
I'm not sure this is a complete sentence.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by petrophysics1, posted 10-13-2014 11:18 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
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