Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 602 of 638 (737243)
09-20-2014 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by taiji2
09-20-2014 3:52 AM


Re: Confirmation bias, taiji2 and me
I found that any topic relevant bit of logic I presented was ignored unless it could be twisted and thrown back with derisive comments.
Your arguments were of low quality. It was easy to expose that what you considered to be logic was nothing of the sort just by asking you a few questions. I asked you repeatedly to discuss the evidence or to provide examples of others who had reached your conclusions using logic and you could not do it.
The dictionary based argument about vegetarians was just plain pathetic.
I conclude that you are just blowing smoke, and that you've now switched topics to preserve some pride. But nothing looks more pathetic than old geezers threatening each other over the internet.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by taiji2, posted 09-20-2014 3:52 AM taiji2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by taiji2, posted 09-20-2014 1:57 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 613 of 638 (737308)
09-22-2014 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by RAZD
09-22-2014 9:04 AM


Re: why is the sky blue?
Do any of these answers provide testable predictions?
You are cherry picking the answers. There may be answers to the question that do provide testable inquiries.
Also, I don't know is the same thing as we may know more later with regard to scientific inquiries.
e) It's random and there are many universes, but only the ones with blue skies produce life in the form RAZD occupies.
But more importantly, any answer we come up with might still be considered a how question relative to some other inquiry. If you can come up with a why question that has no answer that is not just a how question, then you'll have addressed one of my criticisms. If you can show that you have asked such a question already and I claimed you did not, then you can demonstrate that I was wrong. I submit that you cannot do either.
The other criticism is that you are shifting the goal posts just as does a child asking an endless stream of why questions. The original question was indeed answered, the fact that the child has a new question does not change that.
ABE
Would you agree that how atom #12323433 decays is testable while why atom #12323433 decays is not?
Of course not. There are scientific reasons to accept that there is no answer, and those things can, and have been investigated. If the supposition were wrong, then something in the structure of an atom might tell us why.
Let's assume there is no answer and that there is nothing to investigate. I agree that science cannot find a reason that does not exist.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2014 9:04 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2014 2:38 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 616 of 638 (737335)
09-22-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by RAZD
09-22-2014 2:38 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
You are confusing your providing an answer to the question "How is the sky blue" with the question I asked being a why question "that is not just a how question.
If that is the case, then all why questions are actually how questions?
As has been mentioned before, the definition of the word why is not limited to the one you give it. And if we make the restriction you are insisting on, then all questions are how questions.
Both of those arguments are direct rebuttal of your position of how vs what. Your only response so far has been to repeat your position, sometimes with a different question.
If instead you want to ask, what ultimate purpose for the sky being blue, for which that ultimate purpose has no predecessor, then why don't you phrase your question that way instead of pretending that you are in charge of the dictionary.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2014 2:38 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2014 4:27 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 618 by Percy, posted 09-22-2014 5:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 619 of 638 (737374)
09-22-2014 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Percy
09-22-2014 5:06 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
Why did the plane crash?" If I've been reading you right then I think we agree that one can't assign a single approach to interpreting
I don't think we all agree on that. I don't see any way to approach RAZD's responses as saying anything other than that "why did the plane crash" is not an appropriate question if the answer you are looking for is something like engine failure or pilot error.
ABE:
In fact, even a reason such as the pilot developed a paranoid delusion that the passengers were aliens intent on taking over earth, and so he flew the airplane into a mountain just tells us how the plane crashed and not why? As I understand RAZD's position, no answer that gives a natural, probabilistic, or human volition reason for any action is the answer to a true why question.
In fact, I doubt that a why answer, scientific or not exists under the definition being insisted on.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Percy, posted 09-22-2014 5:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Percy, posted 09-22-2014 11:47 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 620 of 638 (737375)
09-22-2014 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 617 by RAZD
09-22-2014 4:27 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
No, why questions should have why answers just as how answers are for how questions.
I yield.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2014 4:27 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 622 of 638 (737382)
09-23-2014 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by RAZD
09-22-2014 2:38 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
Curiously I can only speak for the universe I occupy, and that in a limited way. I see no way to test predictions about the color of skies in alternate universes, perhaps you can help me with that?
You seem, for good reason, to be avoiding saying that the color of the sky in universe 1123434 is not a scientific question. I don't know if such a proposition will ever be testable, but I don't see any metaphysical reason that it must be ultimately untestable.
Why is the sky blue?
NoNukes writes:
If you can come up with a why question that has no answer that is not just a how question, ...
RAZD writes:
Why is the sky blue?
You might want to reconsider your answer.
If you indeed believe that such a question has only a how answer, (science deduced or not) and that is indeed what I asked you for, then we should not be surprised if either science or a ouija board fails to provide an answer.
If in fact all possible answers to that question are actually how answers, scientific or not, then what you are saying is that science is as successful as every other line of reasoning at answering the question.
My proposition is that using your definition there are no true why questions. I am asking you to demonstrate that I am wrong by making up a why answer to a question of your choice.
ABE:
In the spirit of providing openness, what I intend to do is to follow up your why question and answer with yet another why question that relegates your chosen Q&A to mere how.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, :

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2014 2:38 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 623 of 638 (737404)
09-23-2014 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by Percy
09-22-2014 11:47 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
"Why did the plane crash?", "What caused the plane to crash?", "How come the plane crashed?", they're all the same question.
You've reminded me of an incident from elementary school. One of my 3rd grade buddies had an annoying habit of asking me infinite why questions. I'd answer one question from him about anything, and he'd ask me why and i'd feel compelled to answer only to have him ask why again. Rinse, lather, repeat. One day I after the 9th "Why?' in a row, I told him never to ask me why again. He then asked me "How come?".
As I remember it, the two of us laughed all through recess about his 'work around'. Not sure now what was so funny, but I'm convinced that laughing was the right response.
As you suggest, 'why', 'what for', 'how come', 'by what cause or agency', 'by whose say so', 'for what reason', 'explain the incident in terms of God's plan for man' are all questions that we might intend when we ask 'Why?. But those questions are not synonyms, and in some cases one or more of those alternatives are not even in play.
As best we know, true accidents do occur, non-deterministic processes do exist, humans have free will, hurricanes obey natural laws, and bears do defecate in the woods without getting a hall pass. Not everything can be tied to volition or plan. When such is the case, the why obviously refers to something else, and it is no lack or limitation when one method or another does not answer an inappropriate question.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Percy, posted 09-22-2014 11:47 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by Percy, posted 09-23-2014 12:58 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 625 of 638 (737411)
09-23-2014 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Percy
09-23-2014 12:58 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
why questions should have why answers just as how answers are for how questions,"
Sure. Whatever your statement turns out to mean, surely it is true. Do you have an example of such a question?
Why isn't the question in this sentence a why question? Why is the question in this second sentence a why question?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Percy, posted 09-23-2014 12:58 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Percy, posted 09-23-2014 2:44 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 627 of 638 (737415)
09-23-2014 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by Percy
09-23-2014 2:44 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
'Fraid you've lost me.
If I lost you, perhaps that illustrates the point. The second question announces itself as a why question. Perhaps from the context of the discussion I may have successfully communicated that I am expecting a different type of answer from the two questions leading with Why.
But even knowing that one of the questions is intended to be 'more why' than the other, it is still unclear exactly what kind of responses are appropriate. It would at this point be ridiculous if you provided an answer, and then I responded by saying that your answer was wrong and that you were confused about the meaning of why. Surely the responsibility for not being clear is mine and not yours.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Percy, posted 09-23-2014 2:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by Percy, posted 09-23-2014 8:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 629 of 638 (737431)
09-23-2014 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by Percy
09-23-2014 8:07 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
Looks like it's just an illustration that does not illuminate well. My bad.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by Percy, posted 09-23-2014 8:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 633 of 638 (737447)
09-24-2014 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Percy
09-24-2014 7:18 AM


Re: why is the sky blue?
Is he perhaps dividing questions into two types, why and how?
He is certainly saying this.
And is he saying that regardless how a question is worded, that it is one or the other?
No idea. Surely there are questions of types what where, when, and who. In any event he thinks that asking why the sky is blue or why Picasso used funny shapes is sufficient to let us know that he is asking an ultimate purpose type why question. To the extent he maintains that position he's simply wrong not subtle.
We hardly ever ask ultimate purpose type question. I doubt that even the toddler who keeps asking 'why' would stop doing so if his parents gave him such an answer right off the bat.
I think the safest assumption is that the word 'Why' is always an insufficient method of letting us know you are asking a why question outside of very specific contexts.
How come he had to die?" would usually be a why question
And what would be a satisfactory response that I could not claim was just another how answer? God took him to heaven to avoid further suffering? All men are mortal? He contracted Ebola while attempting to help? His heart stopped? His time was up? Stuff happens.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Percy, posted 09-24-2014 7:18 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Percy, posted 09-24-2014 1:44 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 635 of 638 (737451)
09-24-2014 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Percy
09-24-2014 1:44 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
It won't always be clear from context whether a question is mundane or intangible.
Quite frankly in many cases we won't know until you reject/accept an answer. For example, take the question 'why am I having difficulty solving algebra problems'? Is that question about intangibles associated with grasping mathematical concepts or is it about poor study habits? An eighth grader who asks that question may have no idea in what realm the answers will lie.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Percy, posted 09-24-2014 1:44 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 637 of 638 (737493)
09-26-2014 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 636 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2014 9:43 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
I don't have a problem with that. With the word 'why', we can ask about purpose. And science cannot test it.
I largely agree with you. But I would suggest that some purposes are testable. Scientifically. We can test the purposes of humans and animals that are capable of forming intent and even of animals that act entirely out of instinct.
RAZD argues that we cannot test Picasso's intent because we cannot obtain enough information to provide an input that would make him repeat one of his paintings. That is malarkey in my opinion. If that is indeed true, then we cannot test supernova or planet formation theory either so those things must be non-scientific. We never get the same supernova twice nor do we get the same planet.
It is only the ultimate purpose, what is the meaning of 42 type questions that science cannot answer. And surely simply using the word why does not let us know that you want such an answer.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2014 9:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2014 11:59 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024