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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 1864 (735716)
08-22-2014 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
08-22-2014 12:52 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
As soon as you give up omnipotence, "God" becomes just an alien overlord.
Let me suggest that your position is a bit silly. We agree that the entire idea of omnipotence, where that word includes being able to perform logical inconsistencies is silly. But then you go on to say that God not having a silly trait is also silly.
God cannot control the will of a being and yet claim that the being has free will. Yet God could still exert such control. That's no limitation at all.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 08-22-2014 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 08-23-2014 11:41 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 122 of 1864 (735746)
08-23-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
08-22-2014 2:39 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
God cannot control the will of a being and yet claim that the being has free will. Yet God could still exert such control. That's no limitation at all.
I call that the Bart Simpson Defence: "I could do that but I don't wanna."
I could fly to the moon but I don't wanna.
That's just the sort of empty claim that an alien overlord would make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 2:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2014 10:34 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 1864 (735792)
08-24-2014 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
08-23-2014 11:41 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
That's just the sort of empty claim that an alien overlord would make.
If the claim is actually empty, yes.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 08-23-2014 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 08-25-2014 11:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 124 of 1864 (735797)
08-25-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by NoNukes
08-24-2014 10:34 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
If the claim is actually empty, yes.
How would you test it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2014 10:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 08-25-2014 1:45 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 1864 (735804)
08-25-2014 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ringo
08-25-2014 11:36 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
How would you test it?
Testing may not be possible. But hypothetically speaking, the way I would evaluate such claims would be along the following lines.
1) does the rational given for restraint make sense?
2) has the rule of restraint ever been broken?
3) can I see a downside of not practicing restraint?
4) is the restraint part of a logical package that seems consistent?
5) is the constraint consistent with my view of God's nature.
I'm not convinced that God is the least bit interested in micromanaging minutiae on earth. Being the creator of the solar system and even of life itself does not imply any such ability. There are of course those who insist on a God designs every butterfly and snowflake and maintains the planets in their orbits.
But more importantly, I don't see an obligation on God's part to step in and save us from ourselves. I find it completely curious that non-believers insist on such an obligation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 08-25-2014 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2014 7:04 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-26-2014 12:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 126 of 1864 (735809)
08-25-2014 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
08-25-2014 1:45 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Nonukes writes:
But more importantly, I don't see an obligation on God's part to step in and save us from ourselves. I find it completely curious that non-believers insist on such an obligation.
Because that's what was taught in religious schools and from the pulpit and as far as I'm aware, still is. Hence all this thanking god nonsense.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 08-25-2014 1:45 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Jon, posted 08-25-2014 8:54 PM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 127 of 1864 (735819)
08-25-2014 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Tangle
08-25-2014 7:04 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Are there religions that conspicuously preach of God's "obligations"?
I know plenty of believers who believe God will help them, but none who believe He has to.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2014 7:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Omnivorous, posted 08-25-2014 9:59 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2014 2:35 AM Jon has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 128 of 1864 (735821)
08-25-2014 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Jon
08-25-2014 8:54 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
As for Yahweh, aren't there covenants, old and new?
Hasn't he made certain promises?
Covenants and promises suggest obligations.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Jon, posted 08-25-2014 8:54 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2014 1:52 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 1864 (735826)
08-26-2014 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Omnivorous
08-25-2014 9:59 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Covenants and promises suggest obligations.
Yes they do. But of course normally in a contract situation we would expect that the parties bind themselves only after making a promise. They are not obligated to enter a contract. I cannot write a U owe Me, and expect you to pay it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Omnivorous, posted 08-25-2014 9:59 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 130 of 1864 (735827)
08-26-2014 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Jon
08-25-2014 8:54 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Jon writes:
Are there religions that conspicuously preach of God's "obligations"?
I know plenty of believers who believe God will help them, but none who believe He has to.
Christianity does it all the time. Be good and you'll go to heaven. It's a deal, if you're saying that this God is not obliged to keep his part of the bargain, that's not the message shouted from the pulpit and a lot of people are going to be very disapointed.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Jon, posted 08-25-2014 8:54 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 08-26-2014 7:02 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2014 9:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 131 of 1864 (735828)
08-26-2014 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Tangle
08-26-2014 2:35 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
A couple of problems here.
For one thing, you perceive the concept of God subjectively while I perceive Him objectively.
The other issue is what christianity teaches. Basically, its all about allowing relationship with the object(ive) which is Jesus Christ.
The only thing I can do is to represent the objective...so talk to me.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2014 2:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2014 7:15 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 08-26-2014 12:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 132 of 1864 (735829)
08-26-2014 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
08-26-2014 7:02 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
You can't have an objective God Phat because you have absolutely no evidence of a God's existence - you can only have a subjective belief. If it was objective, it wouldn't be a belief, it would be a fact.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 08-26-2014 7:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 1864 (735831)
08-26-2014 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Tangle
08-26-2014 2:35 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Christianity does it all the time. Be good and you'll go to heaven. It's a deal, if you're saying that this God is not obliged to keep his part of the bargain, that's not the message shouted from the pulpit and a lot of people are going to be very disapointed.
Curiously enough, that's not the kind of promise people are talking about here, because they cannot point to people who should be in heaven but are not. People are complaining that bad things exist in the world.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2014 2:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2014 9:52 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 134 of 1864 (735832)
08-26-2014 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by NoNukes
08-26-2014 9:18 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
Curiously enough, that's not the kind of promise people are talking about here, because they cannot point to people who should be in heaven but are not. People are complaining that bad things exist in the world.
If only those promises that God makes that can be proven to be honoured are allowed into this discussion, it's going to be an extremely short discussion.
No matter; a promise is a promise regardless of outcome - proven or otherwise, it places an obligation on the promiser.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2014 9:18 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 1864 (735838)
08-26-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
08-25-2014 1:45 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
There are of course those who insist on a God designs every butterfly and snowflake and maintains the planets in their orbits.
In fact, that's one of the more popular "proofs" that God exists.
NoNukes writes:
is the constraint consistent with my view of God's nature.
If course your view of God's nature will be conisitent with your view of God's nature.
NoNukes writes:
But more importantly, I don't see an obligation on God's part to step in and save us from ourselves. I find it completely curious that non-believers insist on such an obligation.
Apparently the multitudinous references in the Bible the "God the Father" have escaped your notice. Or don't you think fathers have obligations to their children?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 08-25-2014 1:45 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2014 10:56 AM ringo has replied
 Message 139 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2014 11:03 AM ringo has replied

  
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