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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 1864 (735656)
08-20-2014 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
08-20-2014 2:34 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Why couldn't God avoid creating evil by creating a world that didn't evolve?
1) Who says such a thing is even possible?
2) Men do evil and it is impossible to create humans with free will where some of them won't do the wrong thing. Also, motivation from pure motives is not the only way to create progress.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 2:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-20-2014 8:10 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 08-21-2014 12:01 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 113 by Epee, posted 08-22-2014 9:03 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 1864 (735658)
08-20-2014 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by NoNukes
08-20-2014 7:46 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Man created the concept of evil and a moral sense exists only within the mythos of a culture, society or era. It totally arbitrary and it too evolves over time.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 7:46 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 08-27-2014 3:32 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 108 of 1864 (735666)
08-21-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
08-20-2014 6:36 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
As it is a fact that we have evolved, the question as to why God didnt do it differently is actually rhetorical in the sense that we logically would want a God that was useful for ourselves.
If God isn't useful to us, what's the point of having a God?
Phat writes:
And....more to the point...is clubbing your neighbor over the head to steal the limited food supply for your own offspring evil?
Creating a world with a limited food supply is evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 08-20-2014 6:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 109 of 1864 (735667)
08-21-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by NoNukes
08-20-2014 7:46 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
Who says such a thing is even possible?
quote:
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
NoNukes writes:
Men do evil and it is impossible to create humans with free will where some of them won't do the wrong thing.
See above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 7:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2014 8:39 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 1864 (735681)
08-21-2014 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
08-21-2014 12:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
See above.
Can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 08-21-2014 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Jon, posted 08-22-2014 1:38 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 08-22-2014 11:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 1864 (735683)
08-22-2014 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
08-21-2014 8:39 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?
Now you're just being ridiculous.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2014 8:39 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 1864 (735685)
08-22-2014 3:34 AM


The Trinity
I'm going to attempt an actual reply to the topic of this thread. Though I am not ChristianI used to be, but long before I was capable of considering things like the meaning of the TrinityI imagine the Trinity as being a single being with three simultaneous manifestations.
It is easier to think of if you imagine that for one moment the manifestation is Jesus, for another moment the manifestation is the Father, and for another moment the manifestation is the Holy Spirit.
Easy enough to comprehend. There is nothing strange in a God that can manifest in three different ways.
The mental jump comes when we say that God can manifest in these three different ways at the same time. God does not have to choose when to be Jesus, when to be the Father, and when to be the Holy Spirit because He can be all of themand is all of themat once. And yet, just as when they were manifest at different times, they are still independent of one another while being manifestations of the same one God.
It really is a one, two, three logic trail: One god -> Doublethink -> Trinity
But it works.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Omnivorous, posted 08-22-2014 9:54 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 11:50 AM Jon has not replied

  
Epee
Junior Member (Idle past 3233 days)
Posts: 13
From: Florida
Joined: 07-28-2014


Message 113 of 1864 (735693)
08-22-2014 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by NoNukes
08-20-2014 7:46 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
1) Who says such a thing is even possible?
It's god. He can do anything. See Ringo's post.
1) Who says such a thing is even possible?
He could have easily have made doing evil things as repulsive to us as eating dirt. You'd still get a small minority that would do it, but you would be preventing 99% of the evil in the world. You still have free will to choose to do whatever you want, but now there's no motivation for evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 7:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 9:05 AM Epee has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 1864 (735694)
08-22-2014 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Epee
08-22-2014 9:03 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
He could have easily have made doing evil things as repulsive to us as eating dirt.
Not without programming you in such a way, which I contend does not leave you with free will. How many of what we seem to universally find repulsive is not socially learned? How much of what is left is not a product of evolution?
In particular, not eating dirt is a learned response. People put all kinds of things in their mouths (penises, cigars, yogurt without fruit) that I would find repulsive to try.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Epee, posted 08-22-2014 9:03 AM Epee has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 115 of 1864 (735695)
08-22-2014 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Jon
08-22-2014 3:34 AM


Re: The Trinity
Jon writes:
I'm going to attempt an actual reply to the topic of this thread.
On-topic! Whoa. Radical.
As a nonbeliever, I take a functional, historical view of the Trinity: Judaic monotheism was hijacked by a charismatic teacher, requiring the Son; his teachings and subsequent oral history opened the door to the Holy Spirit.
Functionally, the Trinity breaks the rational mind; you cannot reason your way to the Trinity any more than you can reason your way to a God. It is a theologically useful way to say, stop thinking and just believe.
Perhaps, as women make more gains, prompting a greater recognition of the feminine creative principle (if a god created everything alone, what's more likely--male or female?), we may arrive at the Quadrinity: the Mother, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
Though the Prodigal Daughters may not be satisfied with that.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Jon, posted 08-22-2014 3:34 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 11:42 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 1864 (735696)
08-22-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Omnivorous
08-22-2014 9:54 AM


Re: The Trinity
As a nonbeliever, I take a functional, historical view of the Trinity: Judaic monotheism was hijacked by a charismatic teacher, requiring the Son; his teachings and subsequent oral history opened the door to the Holy Spirit.
Yet there is apparently a bit more to Trinity doctrine than forced monotheism. What I find most intriguing (i.e. as silly) about the doctrine is the use of it to designated other followers of Christ as non-Christians.
In trying to track down and understand the doctrine, I came across a controversy over the fact that evangelist T.D. Jakes embraced held a non-traditional view of the Trinity.
While I am able to the distinction between Jakes old view, which he has now renounced and the traditional view, it's a lot more difficult to convince me that the difference is anything Jesus spoke about.
According to almost all evangelistic fundies, people like T.D. Jakes with his reformed view is a heretic despite the fact that they agree with 99.44% of everything he says. Of course those same people invariably believe the earth is 6000 years old.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Omnivorous, posted 08-22-2014 9:54 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 117 of 1864 (735697)
08-22-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
08-21-2014 8:39 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
Can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?
That just emphasizes how silly the concept of an "omnipotent" being is - as silly as the concept of a "trinity".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2014 8:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 12:08 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 1864 (735698)
08-22-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Jon
08-22-2014 3:34 AM


Re: The Trinity
I imagine the Trinity as being a single being with three simultaneous manifestations.
Nothing particularly strange with that, but what you imagine is definitely not the Trinity doctrine. It is close to the Oneness doctrine embraced by the United Pentecostal Church. As best as I can tell, most fundies would consider that belief heretical.
Oneness Pentecostalism - Wikipedia
quote:
Oneness Pentecostalism derives its distinctive name from its teaching on the Godhead, which is popularly referred to as the Oneness doctrine.[2] This doctrine states that there is one God, a singular divine person, who manifests himself in many ways, including as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (a.k.a. Holy Spirit). This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct and eternal "persons" posited by Trinitarian theology. Oneness believers baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, commonly referred to as Jesus-name baptism, rather than using the Trinitarian formula.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Jon, posted 08-22-2014 3:34 AM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 1864 (735700)
08-22-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
08-22-2014 11:45 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
That just emphasizes how silly the concept of an "omnipotent" being is - as silly as the concept of a "trinity"
Exactly. But most Christians are not quite so literal about the word omnipotent. Even the verse you quoted from the Bible described something rare but not logically impossible. Christians who call God omnipotent aren't looking for God to make an invisible, shining, white opaque object that absorbs all light. And the people telling me that I should hold God responsible for the fact that our sun only has a few billion years worth of hydrogen are invariably atheists.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 08-22-2014 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 08-22-2014 12:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 120 of 1864 (735709)
08-22-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by NoNukes
08-22-2014 12:08 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
But most Christians are not quite so literal about the word omnipotent.
As soon as you give up omnipotence, "God" becomes just an alien overlord. Then the question becomes: do you "worship" it or charge up the phasers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 12:08 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 2:39 PM ringo has replied

  
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