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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 393 of 479 (734603)
07-31-2014 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by ringo
07-31-2014 12:19 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
I think "the cross" has cultural significance in most Western societies that goes beyond religion. It symbolizes making sacrifices for our fellow man (e.g. the Red Cross, which is not overtly religious).
I would suggest actually looking at the history of the Red Cross and other symbols used by the ICRC before spouting off nonsense. The various red symbols were chosen and put on large white backgrounds because they would be recognized as something not to shoot at because of their religious or other connotations. They were not chosen to represent sacrifice. They serve as trademarks and as "don't shoot me, I'm trying to save your brother' truce flags.
Were you aware that the red symbols include a red Shield of David and a Red Lion?
In this particular case, regardless of what crosses can mean in other contexts, the cross in question commemorates a religious expression that occurred during a non secular crisis. It is intended to be a crucifix, not a generic "t" because historically that's what was intended at the time.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by ringo, posted 07-31-2014 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by ringo, posted 07-31-2014 2:17 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 395 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-31-2014 2:22 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 396 of 479 (734625)
07-31-2014 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ringo
07-31-2014 2:17 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Why they were chosen is irrelevant to the cultual significance that they actually have today.
Correct. That's why I included the current meanings in my post.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ringo, posted 07-31-2014 2:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 11:41 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 409 of 479 (734803)
08-02-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by ringo
08-02-2014 12:10 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
When you think of the Red Cross, do you honestly think of religion? Or do you think of helping people?
That's a false dichotomy. When I see the particular famous style of red cross on a white background I think of the ICRC. If I saw a three dimensional red cross, I would not think that the ICRC or anyone else is helping people.
Beyond that, the cross in question is not red.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 12:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 12:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 410 of 479 (734805)
08-02-2014 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by ringo
08-02-2014 12:02 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Well, they do. Most atheists celebrate Christmas and Easter, don't they? But they do it in a cultural way instead of a religious way.
I don't know what atheists do on Christmas. Maybe they do still treat their kids to Santa Claus, but I suspect that they are not putting Nativity Scenes in their yards just to be cultural.
But in the US, do atheist do anything special on Easter other than take Good Friday off from work when it is offered? I suspect not. I suspect that they acknowledge such holidays they same way I honor Muslim holidays, namely by being respectful to others who do celebrate them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 12:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 1:01 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 416 by Tangle, posted 08-02-2014 1:30 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 430 by Jon, posted 08-03-2014 11:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 412 of 479 (734808)
08-02-2014 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by ringo
08-02-2014 12:34 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
I don't know what you think "the cross in question" is.
What is the subject matter of this thread, ringo? Surely you are not that obtuse. What cross is mentioned in the title of your message?
When you think of the Red Cross
I've already answered that. When I see 'the' Red Cross, I think of the particular organization that uses 'the' Red Cross. If I were to see a red cross that was completely distinct from that one, I would not think about helping people.
And by asking someone to pick between x or y, when there were other meaningful answers, you did express a dichotomy. Now you are just adding silly things like ice cream that don't make your question any more sensible. In fact, you are parodying yourself.
You've personally adopted a cross and some other religious as non religious symbols having meaning for you. I get that. I think it is pretty cool, now that you've explained it. But that does not cause those symbols to generally have a non-religious meaning.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 12:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 1:11 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 418 of 479 (734828)
08-02-2014 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 1:17 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
The only people silly enough to say otherwise is you and this court ruling.
I don't think the court ruling actually agrees with ringo's reasoning. If you want to find some really cynical reasoning regarding religious symbols like Jesus in a manger being non-religious, you're going to have to look at some Supreme Court decisions.
As I understand it, the court is saying that this particular cross was important in an historical event and accordingly has historical significance in the same way the particular flag raised by four servicemen on Iwo Jima has historical significance not imputed to the flag you might pick up from Walmart to celebrate the fourth of July.
In short it is not that the cross is no longer a religious symbol, but that this particular cross has additional significance which can be displayed without violating the constitution.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 1:17 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 1:51 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 420 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 2:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 421 of 479 (734856)
08-02-2014 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 2:24 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Why is everyone trying to deny that it is?
Who is doing that?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 2:24 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 11:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 424 of 479 (734877)
08-03-2014 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 11:49 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
I wholeheartedly disagree that anything about a cross is secular.
Whatever you or I think about ringo's argument, I think it is easy to find counter examples for your blanket statement. As an example, we can recall that Jesus was not the first or last person to be crucified. So we ought to be able to use a cross as part of a discussion about historical application of capital punishment.
And again, just because a cross is a religious item does not mean that there cannot be secular uses of even a religious cross. An example of that would be a comparison between the employment of crosses, crucifixes, and ankhs as symbols for warding off danger. Despite the fact that fundies would object strenuously to a discussion of that type in a high school class room, such a discussion would likely pass first amendment scrutiny.
As an extreme example, if Abraham Lincoln, escaped death at the hands of JW Booth by having a bullet deflect off of a crucifix that he was wearing, there would be ample secular reason for putting the crucifix on display in a public place at public expense.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 11:49 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 429 of 479 (734955)
08-03-2014 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by RAZD
08-03-2014 4:17 PM


I'd be surprised that there were no objects bent into crescent shapes ...
I don't think Islam adherents are as likely to revere random crescents as Christians are to recognize random crosses. But I would be surprised if there was a reasonable looking star and crescent were found in the rubble.
But let's play what if...
Imagine some steel beams bent into a perfect Star of David and found at a 9-11 dump salvage site sometime next week. I don't see any possible argument for publicly enshrining such an object. The same thing would apply for any random religious object found at the site today.
And of course I don't believe any Islamic symbols would be welcomed no matter what a bunch of Islamic rescue workers felt during 9-11. It's wrong, but that's the way it is.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by RAZD, posted 08-03-2014 4:17 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by hooah212002, posted 08-03-2014 11:58 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 432 of 479 (734988)
08-04-2014 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by Jon
08-03-2014 11:41 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Why limit your question to atheists? I am not an atheist; I am also not a Christian.
Interesting. So when you post as CreationJon, you are just mocking Creationists?
I find your assumption that only Christians celebrate Christian holidays to be absurd.
So when I say that I don't know what atheists do, you expand that to include yourself and then accuse me of saying that only Christians celebrate Christian holidays.
As a first point, my comment would not include you since you are not an atheist. I commented only on my lack of understanding of what atheists do. I did not discuss, or example, what Muslim's or Jewish people might do.
As a second point, what I said was that I don't know what atheists do and that I suspect that atheists do not put up Nativity Scenes. That left room for people like Tangle to actually tell me what they do.
Perhaps if you take a look at what I actually said, and then re-read your response, you'll find something different to label absurd.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Jon, posted 08-03-2014 11:41 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Jon, posted 08-04-2014 12:15 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 433 of 479 (734989)
08-04-2014 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by hooah212002
08-03-2014 11:58 PM


That depends. Was the WTC made out of Stars of David? Because it was actually made out of pre-fabricated crosses.
I don't understand your point.
As your quote indicated, the fabrication of the WTC included steel cross beams, a couple of which form the cross in question. In what way would a piece of steel that was bent into another religious shape during the same collapse present a significantly different issue? If anything, the fact that the t-shape is also a common structural feature would point away from the cross not having any secular purpose. Afterall, the cross was always a part of the WTC in some sense.
I think the primary issue is that nobody genuflected and left messages or prayed etc. in front of other pieces of steel during the aftermath.
I, as a secular non christian, regularly pray to secular items that don't have religious meaning.
Again, nobody is arguing that. That isn't even ringo's argument according to the response to me. What some people are saying is that the cross, in addition to being religious commemorates historical events tightly associated with 9-11.
What other people are rightly noting is that the historical event is just yet another expression of religion.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by hooah212002, posted 08-03-2014 11:58 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 435 of 479 (735011)
08-04-2014 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by Jon
08-04-2014 12:15 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
o then I guess that would make my response largely redundant: your question was only about atheists; you were already well aware that many non-atheist non-Christians celebrated Christian holidays. Is that a fair understanding?
It is fair enough. I was really interested in atheists, and in particular atheists that are particularly put off by public displays of Christianity like hooah200212. I was not interested in anyone else.
NoNukes writes:
I did not discuss, or example, what Muslim's or Jewish people might do.
Jon writes:
There is certainly no reason to leave these folks out.
Really? How about because they were not relevant to my question? Practicing Jews have their own holidays around about those times of year. In any event, I know a lot more about what they do than I do about what atheists do.
I have no problem with you introducing the issue of what non-atheists, non-Christians do. It is relevant overall, and it ties into the topic. I just don't expect to be pilloried for expressing ignorance unless I've pretended that my ignorance is knowledge.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Jon, posted 08-04-2014 12:15 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 3:14 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 469 of 479 (735190)
08-06-2014 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 10:19 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Are you saying that the museum officials are lying? That they are trying to skirt the Constitution and include a purely religious artifact into a secular museum and are committing perjury to the courts in order to save face?
I don't think the officials are lying. But if the were, that would not be the first time that a state agency lied about their intent to get something past the Establishment Clause. Surely you remember the Dover trial?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 10:19 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by jar, posted 08-06-2014 10:09 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 472 of 479 (735194)
08-07-2014 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by jar
08-06-2014 10:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Of course that assumes the exhibit could in anyway possibly be establishment of a State Religion and I think anyone except someone totally disconnected from reality would see that the exhibit in no way establishes a State Religion.
You are right. The exhibit does not establish a state religion. But the Establishment Claus, at least for now, disallows a lot more than that.
Still, you aren't alone in your view. You've managed to latch onto Justice Scalia's crabbed interpretation of the first amendment under which just about anything short of forcing people to attend a particular church at gun point is just fine. So far, Scalia has only been able to convince one other Justice to join him out on that limb.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by jar, posted 08-06-2014 10:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by jar, posted 08-07-2014 8:32 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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