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Author Topic:   Growing the Geologic Column
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 583 of 740 (734888)
08-03-2014 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by JonF
08-02-2014 2:14 PM


Re: igneous layers
Wow, thanks JonF. Great find. I am going to look over that RATE project paper when I get some time. It looks pretty typical though; do a bunch of work and get results, but then the conclusions don't follow the results.
The references are to books that are not readily available on-line.
Yea, Edwin KcKee has done a lot of work in the Grand Canyon in the 30's and 40's, but yea, his books are not readily available online. In fact, they are hard to find even in libraries. Now I am a student at MSU, and they have at least one of the books of his I was looking for, but now I will not have the time to look it over.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by JonF, posted 08-02-2014 2:14 PM JonF has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 614 of 740 (734929)
08-03-2014 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by Faith
08-03-2014 5:14 PM


Re: one word describes it
Luke 6: 27 - 31
quote:
Treat people in the same way that you want them to treat you
Just saying, your supposed to be the righteous one among us.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 5:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 5:53 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 617 of 740 (734932)
08-03-2014 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 613 by Faith
08-03-2014 5:41 PM


Why then is the yellow layer so thick above the area labeled "Albian" and so thin above the area labeled "Late Jurassic..."? If that section faulted after the yellow layer was deposited, wouldn't it have shoved the yellow layer higher and raised it above the adjacent layer?
Are you also including the green layer and the tan layer beneath that and above the Paleozoic basement? I just don't see how you can possibly interpret that as all the layers were in place before any faulting.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 5:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 6:29 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 619 of 740 (734934)
08-03-2014 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by Faith
08-03-2014 5:53 PM


Re: one word describes it
I understand, we've all been there. I had to back off replying to you the other day so that I would not respond in a vengeful way. Remember its the position, not the person. I do not like your position at all; I think it is dishonest and ignorant. But I try very hard to not make it about you. If I do that, you can call me on it as well.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 5:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 6:30 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 623 of 740 (734939)
08-03-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by Faith
08-03-2014 6:29 PM


Can only assume it got deformed in that particular way.
That doesn't look like deformation to me.
The evidence that includes it with the other layers as already there is the fault lines that penetrate into it from the layers below, most clearly those to the left of the salt dome, and the salt dome itself which rises right through it.
What you are assuming that is obviously incorrect is that there was only 1 tectonic event. If you look at it as having multiple tectonic episodes with subsequent sedimentation, it makes more sense.
Isn't it clear that the green layer was already there? It extends all the way from left to right, broken by many fault lines.
Agreed
By the tan layer you mean on the left that says Oceanic crust?
No, the tan layers on the right side. They could just be part of the basement rocks, just colored to highlight them. They also have unconformity surfaces that are not parallel, indicating tectonic activity followed by erosion, followed by sediment (green), followed by tectonic activity, followed by erosion.
Also, white layer doesn't extend beyond a fault line suggesting that the area to the right of it was lifted up while the white layer was put down. There is also a small yellow wedge above the red layer that also suggests the fault was there when the yellow layer was deposited.
I've wondered what that green layer is...
This whole section is challenging to interpret without more information. It would still be a challenge even with more information because there is multiple, complicated events that have occurred.
I can't see this structure forming as a result of 1 sedimentation phase followed by 1 tectonic event. Just can't see it.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 6:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 7:05 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 625 of 740 (734941)
08-03-2014 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by Faith
08-03-2014 6:30 PM


Re: one word describes it
Just what you said here about my position makes you my enemy.
Funny, I don't see you as my enemy.
And how can you call a "position" dishonest and ignorant without calling the person that?
Do you want to compare who does the most name calling and employs personal attacks into their debate style?
You're clearly just one of the snarling wild dogs.
Faith: 1
HBD: 0
As long as you continue participating here and make assertions that have no basis in reality and fail to support your claims with valid scientific evidence, you will continue to meet opposition. As a scientist, I despise your claims because they make a mockery of the hard work and methodology that scientists have dedicated themselves to. As a Christian, I see you as a sister in Christ who has taken a position that I see as dangerous and counter-productive to the goal of spreading the gospel. It makes it virtually impossible for anyone of this generation to accept the Bible as the Word of God. I wholly oppose fundamentalism.
Those are the positions! Where in my statements did I make a personal attack on you?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 6:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 627 of 740 (734943)
08-03-2014 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Faith
08-03-2014 7:05 PM


Any given fault line proves that all the layers it penetrates were there at that time.
No, it doesn't. If a fault slid 10 feet then stopped, and then sediment was deposited on top of it and then it slid again, the fault could then continue into the new layer. It could also deform the layers above, it would depend on forces and resistance involved (like what type of material the new deposit is).
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 7:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by edge, posted 08-03-2014 8:07 PM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 633 by Faith, posted 08-03-2014 8:14 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(4)
Message 701 of 740 (735110)
08-05-2014 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
08-05-2014 8:40 AM


Re: Flood debunkery revisited
I just posted a news report at my blog on the rain in California that shows cars buried in mud. That was merely one day of very heavy rain and it did a lot of damage.
It would be turning everything to mud that could turn to mud, and the mud would be running down from the high places to the low places. All over the whole land mass.
Again I refer you to mudslides in California, but it's really very common for such mudslides to occur in a heavy rain after just a very short time of it.
But I don't know where you get your certainty about how much dirt all that water would have moved. Whole hillsides collapse under heavy rain out here in the west, hillsides with houses on them that slide along with the mud and end up half buried in it, after just a few days of very heavy rain.
It's the turning of dry land into soggy mud and making innumerable mudslides everywhere that I'm thinking of as the scouring process and that should have happened to a great depth during those first forty days and nights. Very few hills left after all that I would suppose. Given that a day or three of heavy rain can collapse hills intio muddy rivers NOW,
Mud, mud, mud, muddy mud, Faith. Not sandstone or limestone or any of the other types of sedimentary rocks. Just mud. If your scenario is correct, we should see a thick layer of mud, everywhere on the earth and all the dead things killed in the flood would be buried in that layer.
That's what I have tried to get across to you; find one layer,just one layer, that is consistent with a massive flood that is distributed throughout the world and that can be correlated to the same relative time period. THIS would be strong evidence for a global flood. But how does your mud observations translate into what we observe in the geological column.
Well, as I keep saying, there is no way to prove unwitnessed events in the past, we're at the mercy of our ability to imagine and interpret.
You can always retreat to this position when you can't provide any support for your assertions. But you just described in detail what we would see in a great flood. But that doesn't match up with what we observe, does it? Your scenario requires the flood waters to grind up rock into tiny bits of sand, (some rounded, some sharp), millions of cubic miles of rock. And to produce huge amounts of calcium carbonate shaped like little sea creatures and then to do this over and over, in various parts of the world and various times, in precise patterns; and do all this in a year.
And we are all too dense to see this as a possibility?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 08-05-2014 8:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:06 AM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 702 of 740 (735111)
08-05-2014 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by RAZD
08-05-2014 8:59 AM


Each layer of sediment would have internal layers that can be identified on both sides of the fault, and the displacement from one side to the other can be measured. If the bottom layer is displaced more than the layer over it, and that layer is displaced more than the layer over it, then we observe that this can only happen if the fault is reactivated after each subsequent layer.
Excellent point RAZD. Layers are not as simple as "a thick slab of sandstone."
But these conditions are not visible from a computer screen or a generalized cross section.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by RAZD, posted 08-05-2014 8:59 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:02 AM herebedragons has replied
 Message 707 by RAZD, posted 08-06-2014 7:30 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 710 of 740 (735131)
08-06-2014 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 703 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:02 AM


I am not sure what your point is. A layer is called "limestone" because limestone is the predominant sediment, not because it is necessarily pure limestone or there is no cross bedding or other internal features.
Edwin Dinwiddie (yes that his real name) McKee wrote a 700+ page book in 1969 on the Redwall Limestone alone. The book is hard to find but you can view a preview a Google Books Histroy of the Redwall Limestone Norther Arizona
But I'm sure I don't need to explain all this to you.
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : typo - left out word

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:02 AM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 712 of 740 (735134)
08-06-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 704 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:06 AM


Re: Flood debunkery revisited
Faith, your description of what the flood would do based on observing severe rainfall and subsequent mudslides, etc., was the best, most realistic idea of what the flood would have done that you have ever presented. I bet if you presented a scenario like that people would agree that it would be a good representation of what the great flood would do. I believe Moose presented something very similar.
It STARTS with mud, what happens after that is how it becomes separated sediments.
We've been down this road before. How does water separate mud into distinct layers that settle out in random order (i.e. not from coarse to fine)?
Besides, you have never mentioned mud becoming these separate layers before. Your idea required large areas of landscapes to be transported intact (remember footprints and burrows in Coconino sandstone?). The problem is you can't keep track of what explanation you have used since they are simply made up and not based on actual evidence.
That's underhanded and it's stupid. And there is a distinction between the sciences of the unwitnessed past and the real sciences
This is just your hiding place you retreat to when you have nothing else to argue.
anyone with an IQ of 80 ought to be able to figure out
Well, my IQ is only 79, so you are going to need to do a much better job of explaining it.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 717 of 740 (735160)
08-06-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 714 by Faith
08-06-2014 9:57 AM


Its just funny how NOTHING, no part of this is your fault. You take absolutely NO responsibility for the quality of discussion here. Everything is our fault because we are so evil and you are so righteous. Makes me sick. I have worked really hard to have a productive discussion with you. I tried really, really hard to be objective and to do the best I can to understand what your objections actually are and to consider them in a fair manner. But all it meets with is denial, accusations and derision from you.
The only thing I have ever expected from you in having these discussions is that you would acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons why I (we) accept that the earth is old, that evolution is a fact, and that the Bible is not always literally true. If you are not convinced, that's fine. If you don't accept evidence that is obvious to me, that's fine. But for me, just like petrophysicist said, I have looked at the evidence and it has forced me to draw certain conclusions.
You expect us to focus on one tiny piece and draw conclusions about the entire puzzle. Yes, Faith, we all agree that the cross section of the Grand Canyon / Grand Staircase show that the whole stack was laid down before there was major tectonic disturbance. We agree with that. It was said many times by most everyone involved. We get it already!
The problem comes when you try to extrapolate that to the entire geological system. When you make statements like "there was no tectonic activity until the entire geological column was deposited." To which we respond "No, that's not the case, look at all these other places in the world where there was tectonic activity during that time." To which you claim that we are misrepresenting you and twisting your words. Take some responsibility for your own actions! Actually address our concerns, not just start the name calling and evasion.
Why do you come here as opposed to a place like EFF, where everyone will agree with you? You said you are not interested in preaching to the choir, but then you retreat to your blog and simple regurgitate your arguments that you presented here as if they weren't soundly refuted. So why do you come here? Do you really think you will convert anyone with your diatribe?
If you want to convince people that the Bible is true, then you should do so with your actions not your words; how you treat people is more important than your "scientific" arguments.
Well, best wishes to you.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 9:57 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by JonF, posted 08-06-2014 2:03 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 736 of 740 (735469)
08-16-2014 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 735 by dwise1
08-16-2014 3:34 AM


Re: Good for evil and evil for good, black for white and white for black, bitter fr swt..
According to BBC's James Burke, "Connections" and all, we should be able to thank Protestants for that.
I would argue that it was the other way around, that Protestantism was a product of the Renaissance. The rediscovery of Aristotle and other Greek philosophers, the beginnings of humanism and a growing sense of national heritage and pride. IMO, these were the major driving forces behind the Reformation.
What really drove the Protestant Revolution? Martin Luther posted some protests on a church door. Totally local event! But at the same time Gutenberg had this little printing press thingee. And somebody took that local protest and printed unlimited copies of it all over the region and it became an entire revolution.
I agree, without the printing press the immediate results would have been much less widespread. However, I suspect that the Protestant Revolution would have spread eventually, just not as explosively and as violently as it did. Many people were very dissatisfied with the abuses of the Catholic Church, which was totally oppressive to the commoners, but they accepted it because they were taught that God had ordained kings and paupers and you were simply subject to your role as a member of your caste. Humanism and the Renaissance woke people from this deception and allowed people to demand fair and decent treatment; to recognize that a pauper was as human as a king.
Now the final irony is that while the Protestants may have earlier triggered the shift towards normalcy, now they are trapped in the sewage.
Good point. In fact, fundamentalists seem to lament that churches are able to think independently and even seem to think that there should be a final authority over the church even as to determine what version of the Bible should be the authorized version. That is exactly what the Protestants fought against - a universal governing body over the church.
What I think is ironic is that what the reformers demanded is that individuals should be able to read the Scriptures for themselves and use it to determine their theology, not to be told by an institution what that theology should be. Now the fundamentalists want to impose that theology on all, to the point that you can no longer be a "true" Christian unless you subscribe to it. It has gotten to the point that the theology is more important than the experience that theology is supposed to reflect. It is little different than the Pharisees of Jesus' time or the Catholic Church of Luther's time.
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : edited to remove reference to Faith

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by dwise1, posted 08-16-2014 3:34 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 08-16-2014 5:50 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 738 of 740 (735520)
08-16-2014 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by Faith
08-16-2014 5:50 PM


Re: Good for evil and evil for good, black for white and white for black, bitter fr swt..
It is certainly the impression I got from our discussions on the Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries thread. However, I didn't mean it as a comment directed against you and I certainly didn't want to raise your ire enough for you to have to come here to a place you hate so much to defend yourself. Plus I have no desire to get into a discussion of any kind with you so I will withdraw your name from the post in question.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 08-16-2014 5:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Faith, posted 08-16-2014 9:14 PM herebedragons has seen this message but not replied

  
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