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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 392 of 479 (734598)
07-31-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by Straggler
07-31-2014 7:24 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Straggler writes:
You argued that a giant crucifix had "secular purpose" but were patently unable to express what that "secular purpose" was.
I think "the cross" has cultural significance in most Western societies that goes beyond religion. It symbolizes making sacrifices for our fellow man (e.g. the Red Cross, which is not overtly religious).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2014 7:24 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 2:09 PM ringo has replied
 Message 406 by ramoss, posted 08-02-2014 1:00 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 394 of 479 (734606)
07-31-2014 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by NoNukes
07-31-2014 2:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NoNukes writes:
The various red symbols were chosen and put on large white backgrounds because they would be recognized as something not to shoot at because of their religious or other connotations.
Why they were chosen is irrelevant to the cultual significance that they actually have today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 2:09 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 5:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 397 of 479 (734698)
08-01-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by NoNukes
07-31-2014 5:24 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NoNukes writes:
That's why I included the current meanings in my post.
You included what you interpret the current meanings to be. Others do not necessarily interpret a cross as a religious symbol.
For one thing, it is non-denominational. It is associated with a culture that happens to have a lot of Christian roots. It is not necessarily associated with particular religious beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 5:24 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by hooah212002, posted 08-01-2014 11:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 399 of 479 (734705)
08-01-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by hooah212002
08-01-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
hooah writes:
Unless you are using "cultural christians" as your copout.
I was talking specifically about a culture with Christian roots as opposed to religious practices. What part of that did you miss?
hooah writes:
If that is the case, those people are still christians because they more often than not believe in jesus in some fashion.
I beilieve in much of what the fictional character Jesus stood for but I don't consider myself a Christian. I also believe in much of what the fictional character Frodo stood for but I don't call it religious.
hooah writes:
I, for one, have never seen a non-christian displaying a cross in their house.
I have a crucifix that I made myself. My fundy friends and relatives are either puzzled or horrified.
hooah writes:
I, for one, have never seen any non-christian rocking a cross necklace.
Or, you assume that every stranger you see wearing a cross is a Christian.
I, for one, have a Jesus fish bracelet and a WWJD necklace. Do they count?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by hooah212002, posted 08-01-2014 11:44 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by hooah212002, posted 08-01-2014 4:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 407 of 479 (734799)
08-02-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by hooah212002
08-01-2014 4:26 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Hooah writes:
Am I wrong in taking this to mean that you are saying it is pure coincidence that the cross has meaning? "Happens to have Christian roots"? Would Americans or anything region that "happens to have a lot of christian roots" wear crosses if not for the christian roots?
The cross has religious meaning for some and other meanings for others.
Hooah writes:
"Culturally christian" is still christian.
Nonsense. The US is culturally Christian and yet we see you guys arguing all the time that it isn't a "Christian nation".
hooah writes:
Being an atheist that grew up in christian culture doesn't automatically make one a "cultural christian"...
Sure it does.
hooah writes:
... unless they do christian things...
Well, they do. Most atheists celebrate Christmas and Easter, don't they? But they do it in a cultural way instead of a religious way.
hooah writes:
Belief in words written by what you admit to be a fictional character is not anywhere remotely close to believing IN that fictional character.
Sure it is. That's what I tell Christians all the time. What matters is the message, not the messenger. Unfortunately, some religious people have it reversed, like you do.
hooah writes:
tell me: would anyone wear a cross had it not been for this jesus character or christianity?
As I mentioned to NoNukes, and he agreed, the origin of the symbol is irrelevant. Things change.
hooah writes:
ringo writes:
I, for one, have a Jesus fish bracelet and a WWJD necklace. Do they count?
And I am sure you don't wear them to be ironic whatsoever, right?
Certainly not. I wear them because I believe in the message, not the messenger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by hooah212002, posted 08-01-2014 4:26 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 12:34 PM ringo has replied
 Message 415 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 1:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 408 of 479 (734800)
08-02-2014 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by ramoss
08-02-2014 1:00 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
ringo writes:
I think "the cross" has cultural significance in most Western societies that goes beyond religion. It symbolizes making sacrifices for our fellow man (e.g. the Red Cross, which is not overtly religious). Message 392
ramoss writes:
Not to me.
When you think of the Red Cross, do you honestly think of religion? Or do you think of helping people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by ramoss, posted 08-02-2014 1:00 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 12:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 411 of 479 (734806)
08-02-2014 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by NoNukes
08-02-2014 12:19 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NoNukes writes:
That's a false dichotomy.
It's not a dichotomy at all. It's just the two most obvious examples that came to mind. If you want more possibilities:
When you think of the Red Cross,
- do you think of Switzerland?
- do you think of electric chairs?
- do you think of ice cream?
NoNukes writes:
Beyond that, the cross in question is not red.
I don't know what you think "the cross in question" is. I'm talking about crosses in general in Western culture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 12:19 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 12:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 413 of 479 (734812)
08-02-2014 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by NoNukes
08-02-2014 12:34 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NoNukes writes:
I don't know what atheists do on Christmas. Maybe they do still treat their kids to Santa Claus, but I suspect that they are not putting Nativity Scenes in their yards just to be cultural.
I have a collection of about seventy nativity scenes.
NoNukes writes:
But in the US, do atheist do anything special on Easter other than take Good Friday off from work when it is offered?
In my experience, everybody celebrates Easter pretty much the same way. Some people go to church on Easter who don't attend on a regular basis. Otherwise, Easter is pretty much a secular holiday, like Valentine's Day but with different candy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 12:34 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 414 of 479 (734813)
08-02-2014 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by NoNukes
08-02-2014 12:42 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NoNukes writes:
What cross is mentioned in the title of your message?
Some cross that atheists wanted to remove but the powers-that-be agree with me that it has cultural significance in addition to any religious significance that it might have.
NoNukes writes:
In fact, you are parodying yourself.
Congratulations on being able to see beyond the literal for once.
NoNukes writes:
When I see 'the' Red Cross, I think of the particular organization that uses 'the' Red Cross. If I were to see a red cross that was completely distinct from that one, I would not think about helping people.
The Red Cross is one example of a cross whose implications go beyond the religious. The cross in the OP, according to the powers-that-be, is apparently another example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 12:42 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 417 of 479 (734827)
08-02-2014 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 1:17 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
hooah writes:
So your argument boils down to "nuh uh, you're wrong because I say so"?
I'm agreeing with the organizers of the 9/11 memorial, who consider the cross a symbol of hope for everybody.
hooah writes:
Christmas = Winter Solstice
Easter = eggs and candy.
No Christianity there whatsoever.
Yes, that's my point.
hooah writes:
So in ringo world, Christianity now means "belief in what jesus says" instead of the way it has been for eons of "belief that jesus existed and died for your sins"?
Yes.
hooah writes:
So you, Ringo, are a christian?
No.
If you had been reading my posts faithfully, you'd know these things.
hooah writes:
you do realize that belief in what someone says is not the same as belief in that someone, right?
On the contrary, belief in what somebody says is far more important than the trivial question of whether that somebody actually existed. What matters more, the dream that Martin Luther King Jr. had or the guy who mentioned he had it?
hooah writes:
If you can point me to ANYONE other than yourself (because I don't even believe you) that uses the cross in a non-christian manner, I will cede my point.
See the OP: the organizers of the 9/11 memorial.
hooah writes:
The only people silly enough to say otherwise is you and this court ruling.
Only me and the courts, eh? Then I think I'm in fairly good company.
hooah writes:
And neither of you have provided ANY evidence other than Ringo's say so.
Maybe the courts are reading my posts like you should be, but I doubt that they made their ruling solely on my say-so.
hoah writes:
So jesus' message is "ask me what I would do in this situation" and you wear a symbol that represents a religion and not at all what the character said?
Jesus' message was, "Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself." Most religions say pretty much the same thing. I wear a symbol that represents that message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 1:17 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 419 of 479 (734829)
08-02-2014 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by NoNukes
08-02-2014 1:45 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NoNukes writes:
In short it is not that the cross is no longer a religious symbol, but that this particular cross has additional significance which can be displayed without violating the constitution.
That pretty much is my reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 1:45 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 448 of 479 (735073)
08-05-2014 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Tangle
08-04-2014 5:38 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Tangle writes:
Truth is it was picked for its religious significance and it has a religious significance now - a very obvious one.
You're skipping a step in your logic. The cross was chosen as a meeting point because of its spiritual significance and because it was easily recognizeable. It was chosen for the museum because it was chosen by the rescuers. If they had chosen a beam bent into the shape of a duck, that would be in the museum instead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 12:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 449 of 479 (735078)
08-05-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by hooah212002
08-04-2014 7:03 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
hooah writes:
No appeals? One court decision is all it takes to end discussion about a topic?
If and when another court overturns the ruling, we can discuss their reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 7:03 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 451 of 479 (735089)
08-05-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Tangle
08-05-2014 12:56 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Tangle writes:
The museum chose an undeniable religious symbol. The rest is pure bullshit.
The bullshit is yours. The museum chose a symbol of hope. The people who had the hope happened to be Christians. Only a handful of atheists seem to see that as a constitutional problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 2:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 463 of 479 (735163)
08-06-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by Tangle
08-05-2014 2:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Tangle writes:
There'll be a few million people view that symbol in the next year, would you bet me anything at all that if you interviewed them and asked them what does the symbol represent that more would say hope than religion or Christianity or some such?
I'd be willing to bet that a large number would associate it with something other than religion.
Tangle writes:
And for those three people who say 'hope' how many do you think would answer the follow up question 'why?' With something about salvation?
If they were paying attention to why it was included in the memorial, they'd say it was hope that more victims would be rescued. Salvation from the wreckage, yes. "Eternal salvation" not necessarily.
Tangle writes:
... I just wouldn't pretend that it's not a crucifix and holds no religious significance.
It's funny how you self-styled experts on religious symbols don't know the difference between a cross and a crucifix.
The fundies that I know make a huge distinction. A crucifix would have no more religious significance to them than a portrait of Satan.
In the broad sense, a cross may be a religious symbol but it means different things to different denominations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 2:09 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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