Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 381 of 479 (635287)
09-28-2011 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Straggler
09-28-2011 12:54 PM


Re: WTC cross as a national monument
Oh stop bragging.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Straggler, posted 09-28-2011 12:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Straggler, posted 09-28-2011 12:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 386 of 479 (734455)
07-29-2014 2:35 PM


Atheists lose, cross stays
According to this report from the New York Post:
quote:
The Second Circuit Court of Appeals on Monday rejected a bid by American Atheists Inc. to remove the famed cross-shaped steel beams that survived the 9/11 attacks from the National September 11 Memorial & Museum.
And as I argued throughout this thread:
quote:
[Given] the absence of any evidence of ulterior religious motives, and the undisputed historical significance of The Cross at Ground Zero, we conclude that, as a matter of law, the record compels the conclusion that the actual purpose of displaying the cross in the September 11 Museum is a genuine secular interest in recounting the history of extraordinary events,
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : loose --> lose

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Omnivorous, posted 07-29-2014 4:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 389 by Taq, posted 07-29-2014 4:48 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 390 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2014 7:24 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 388 of 479 (734458)
07-29-2014 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Omnivorous
07-29-2014 4:12 PM


Re: Atheists loose, cross stays
The power of Christ compelled them!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Omnivorous, posted 07-29-2014 4:12 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 391 of 479 (734592)
07-31-2014 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Straggler
07-31-2014 7:24 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Not really.
No, really. That's pretty much exactly what my position was throughout this whole thread.
You argued that a giant crucifix had "secular purpose" but were patently unable to express what that "secular purpose" was.
Message 127
quote:
They have a piece of the building that held a significance for the resuers. Its not just any old cross, that it was a part of the actual building is part of the historical significance.
Message 138
quote:
Like with this cross being a piece of the actual building and then also providing help to the rescue workers, the religious nature is secondary to that for being secular and considered worthy of the museum, imho.
Message 139
quote:
And also that it could have raised morale and coordinated the effort. Its not just a religious symbol.
Message 144
quote:
I don't think it should matter how it became secular, but I do not think it happens like you're describing.
Its secular to me because:
  • Its from the actual building, i.e. its an artifact from the site itself
  • It played an important role in the resue operation
That it became important because of its religious significance does not come into play, imho.
Message 151
quote:
Straggler writes:
Why not admit it's religious nature and argue that it should be there anyway?
That has been my position the whole time. I have admitted it is religious, and that that doesn't matter, and I have not denied that it is religious. I've argued that it passes the Lemon Test so it should be allowed.
Message 191
quote:
What secular reason?
Please catch up on what's already been posted:
Message 59:
quote:
Museum officials said the cross was being displayed not because of its religious value but the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks.
"The mission of the National September 11 Memorial Museum is to tell the history of 9/11 through historic artefacts like the World Trade Center cross. This steel remnant became a symbol of spiritual comfort for the thousands of recovery workers who toiled at ground zero, as well as for people around the world," museum president Joe Daniels said in a statement.
Message 127:
quote:
How exactly did it help them?
Spiritual comfort in a time of high stress. Increase morale. Some sort of effort consilience. I dunno, I wasn't there. I'm just taking their word for it.
Message 144:
quote:
Its secular to me because:
  • Its from the actual building, i.e. its an artifact from the site itself
  • It played an important role in the resue operation

.
If Kali inspires a DMV worker to do a better job, is that a secular reason?
In a museum that was exhibiting things that have helped DMV workers, showing how Kali did could be done in a secular way, yes.
I think there's even more later but that should suffice and I'm tired of looking up old messages.
I bel ieve it was I who said it was a blatantly religious symbol that held historical significance (AKA secular interest) to the events of 9/11 and that it's inclusion could thus potentially be justified on that basis.
Where did you say that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2014 7:24 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by Straggler, posted 08-01-2014 1:07 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 395 of 479 (734607)
07-31-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by NoNukes
07-31-2014 2:09 PM


Just a minor quibble:
It is intended to be a crucifix
A crucifix is a cross that has Jesus on it, not just a bare cross.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 2:09 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 437 of 479 (735017)
08-04-2014 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 11:49 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
This part of the panel statement seems to me to indicate that the cross in this instance is some how not religious, but secular.
No, the cross is religious, nobody denies that. But the purpose for displaying it is a secular one: to recount the history of what went down during that time.
The cross impacted many people that were directly involved in the rescue and recovery efforts. It deserves to be recognized at this memorial.
Why is that? So they can skirt the constitution and have a government sanctioned religious symbol.
But nobody has provided any evidence for that at all. And in fact, we can read from the people behind the memorial:
quote:
The Memorial Mission:
  • Remember and honor the thousands of innocent men, women, and children murdered by terrorists in the horrific attacks of February 26, 1993 and September 11, 2001.
  • Respect this place made sacred through tragic loss.
  • Recognize the endurance of those who survived, the courage of those who risked their lives to save others, and the compassion of all who supported us in our darkest hours.
  • May the lives remembered, the deeds recognized, and the spirit reawakened be eternal beacons, which reaffirm respect for life, strengthen our resolve to preserve freedom, and inspire an end to hatred, ignorance and intolerance.

And from Mayor Bloomberg, the Chairman of the Board:
quote:
The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, brought loss and grief on a scale we had never known. But in the dark days that followed, the indomitable spirit of our city and nation shined more brightly than ever, as stories of heroism and sacrifice inspired us all. And together, we made a solemn vow: that we would never forget those we lost and that we would forever share their stories with the world.
That is why we built the National September 11 Memorial & Museum.
The Memorial & Museum provide a place of reflection and remembrance. They are designed to help those who were most affected by the attacks to heal — and those with no memory of the attacks to understand losses that will forever be incomprehensible.
...
The 9/11 Memorial & Museum stands as a powerful tribute to the victims of the attacks — and to the power of the human spirit. Its importance will grow with each passing year.
As you can see, having the cross at the memorial has nothing to do with skirting the constitution and having a government sanction religious symbol. Its all about remembering the events that surrounded the tragedy, and the cross was an important artifact involved in those events.
Then there is the court ruling:
quote:
the record compels the conclusion that the actual purpose of displaying the cross in the September 11 Museum is a genuine secular interest
I wholeheartedly disagree that anything about a cross is secular.
Read the whole part:
quote:
[Given] the absence of any evidence of ulterior religious motives, and the undisputed historical significance of The Cross at Ground Zero, we conclude that, as a matter of law, the record compels the conclusion that the actual purpose of displaying the cross in the September 11 Museum is a genuine secular interest in recounting the history of extraordinary events,
The cross has a genuine secular interest in being displayed to recount the history of events around 9/11. That's undisputed historical significance in the absence of any ulterior religious motives. Case closed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 11:49 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 446 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 7:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 439 of 479 (735019)
08-04-2014 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
08-04-2014 4:08 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
the only interest in that particular piece of metal is because of its religious significance.
I have no reason to believe that whatsoever.
I mean, who should I listen to? The people who are putting the museum together, or some random anonymous atheist on the internet?
I think I'll side with the people who are in charge of the museum. They've explained why they've included the cross and the courts have ruled that it doesn't violate the constitution because they do have a genuine secular interest in including it.
The case is closed. You lost. Get over it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 4:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 4:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 441 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 4:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 442 of 479 (735022)
08-04-2014 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by hooah212002
08-04-2014 4:33 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
that's it, shut the thread down. close up shop. No more discussion here folks.
Especially when people start avoiding the evidence for why they're wrong and instead go for the low lying fruit that is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 4:33 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 6:56 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 443 of 479 (735023)
08-04-2014 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Tangle
08-04-2014 4:33 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
It doesn't get us passed the very, very obvious fact that it was chosen because of its religious significance.
That's why it was chosen by the rescuers for a meeting spot, etc., but that's not why the officials want it in the museum:
quote:
Museum officials said the cross was being displayed not because of its religious value but the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks.
"The mission of the National September 11 Memorial Museum is to tell the history of 9/11 through historic artefacts like the World Trade Center cross. This steel remnant became a symbol of spiritual comfort for the thousands of recovery workers who toiled at ground zero, as well as for people around the world," museum president Joe Daniels said in a statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 4:33 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 5:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 461 of 479 (735157)
08-06-2014 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Tangle
08-04-2014 5:38 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
that's what they have to say
Whoa, hang on. Clarify this for me, what exactly are you saying here?
Are you saying that the museum officials are lying? That they are trying to skirt the Constitution and include a purely religious artifact into a secular museum and are committing perjury to the courts in order to save face?
because of your inconvenient constitution - it's making everyone torture words and feelings.
Well no, the Constitution is clear on this matter - there's no problem including this cross in a secular museum. And its not making anyone do anything. The American Atheists are the ones who are making everyone torture words and feelings.
Truth is it was picked for its religious significance and it has a religious significance now - a very obvious one. It looks like a duck....not much point calling it anything else but a duck except to avoid a legalistic difficulty.
False. There is a point in calling it something else: it IS something else too.
Nobody doubts its religious significance. Its just that more significance can be piled onto the religious significance. If fact, even secular significance can be piled on.
Once there's enough secular significance, then there is no problem with including it in a secular museum.
You do realize that there are plenty of religious artifacts in secular museums here in the U.S., right?
From Message 460:
The problem the lawyers are having is that they want to use the icon regardless of their laws because it is so obviously an amazing thing - but have to torture logic simply because it's of deeply religious significance. It's not a conflict culture, it's purely a conflict of law.
Not at all. The law is clear: Including this cross does not violate the constitution because the officials have an honest secular interest in including it with no evidence of any overt religious motivation.
There's no conflict whatsoever.
The problem all lies with the American Atheists. They're the ones with an unconstitutional position (the complete separation of religion from government). They, and their supporters, are the ones who have to torture logic to create this conflict. I mean, you've gone so far as to offer a conspiracy theory.
And look at the other crap they are making up now:
quote:
American Atheists President David Silverman used a return appearance on television’s most-watched cable news network to suggest that at least five members of his group have suffered a variety of ailments — chiefly dyspepsia — because their intestines can’t stomach the thought of a Christian symbol on display at the National September 11 Memorial and Museum in New York. Apparently, the stomach pains would go away, though, if the museum installed a plaque honoring all the atheists murdered in

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 9:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 471 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2014 2:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 462 of 479 (735159)
08-06-2014 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by hooah212002
08-04-2014 7:03 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Find me non-Christians that identify with this cross and hold it as significant.
Okay: Rich Sheirer.
quote:
Men cut replicas of the cross out of ruined steel and carried them in their pockets. Even Rich Sheirer, then New York’s director of the Office of Emergency Management and a self-described short, round Jewish guy, appreciated the cross. Intellectually, you knew it’s just two pieces of steel, but you saw the impact it had on so many people, and you also knew it was more than steel, he says. Sheirer has a picture of it standing in the wreckage, as well as a small steel cutout given to him for a keepsake by the September 11th Families’ Association.
Father Brian says: We had Jews, Muslims, Buddhists. People who believed or didn’t believe. It was a matter of human solidarity. Whether you believed was irrelevant. We needed some type of fellowship down there, other than working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 7:03 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by hooah212002, posted 08-06-2014 7:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 467 of 479 (735188)
08-06-2014 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by hooah212002
08-06-2014 7:22 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
What was your point in using this example (that you didn't even properly cite)?
It was an example of a non-Christian that identified with the cross and held it as significant.
I didn't even need it, though, as my argument stands without it. I was just trying to do something other than be combative. Ya know, for your feelings n'stuff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by hooah212002, posted 08-06-2014 7:22 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by hooah212002, posted 08-06-2014 8:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 474 of 479 (735205)
08-07-2014 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by Tangle
08-07-2014 2:38 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
They just need to create an alternative story - transparently obvious though it is - 'cos everyone in the process wants the result that they got.
No, all they needed to do was tell the truth - 'cos including the cross is perfectly acceptable and doesn't violate the constitution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2014 2:38 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024