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Author Topic:   Growing the Geologic Column
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 277 of 740 (734323)
07-28-2014 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
07-28-2014 2:11 AM


Re: Cardenas
I don't see why not. There are already sills there, why not another?
Maybe because there is other evidence?
I'm not so much assuming it as looking for evidence for it.
We are giving it to you right now.
Because I did get convinced that all this occurred after the strata were laid down so I continue to look for how that could be evidenced.
So, contrary to your previous sentence, you assume one event.
I'm sure it's frustrating to you since you've got it all worked out to your own satisfaction already, but I'm still looking for new angles on it.
It's free world. Do whatever you want, but in a debate you should provide evidence to support your position. To not do this is an insult.
You've given some evidence but it doesn't strike me as conclusive: the erosional surfaces.
And yet you have no evidence whatsoever. To me, this is disingenuous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 2:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 3:12 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 285 of 740 (734333)
07-28-2014 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
07-28-2014 3:12 AM


Re: Cardenas
The main evidence I have is what led me to this pondering: the fact that in many or most places I've seen on cross section the volcanic effects clearly occurred after the strata were all in place, including the Grand Staircase.
This is clearly untrue since the Cardenas Basalt flows were deposited in sequence with the enclosing sedimentary rocks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 3:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 12:50 PM edge has replied
 Message 301 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 12:50 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 286 of 740 (734334)
07-28-2014 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
07-28-2014 3:36 AM


Re: Does Practical Geology Really Need the Old Earth?
So you all say but I think this is just a habit of thought and in actual practical fact has nothing to do with looking for oil or certain fossils.
And this is all according to whom?
OK, this is the sort of thing I've heard is necessary. I'd like to see it demonstrated and argued out some time. I'd suspect that the theory about thermal history would work but only because it's really about relative age and relative heat, not because the actual temperature could be or needs to be known. But that's my theory for whenever I get to see the arguments presented.
Again, wrong. THe only thing you know is that the dike is younger than the sediments. It represents a thermal event that may have affected either the source or the reservoir rocks depending on when the oil formed or migrated.
But just as a matter of fact I've been impressed with the sketchiness of the identification of the time periods on these petroleum cross sections, maybe something like "Ord" at the bottom of the stack and "Mio" at the very top with hardly anything noted in between.
So, you have seen actual company sections used for oil exploration? How did you manage that? And how do you judge the 'sketchiness' of the sections? Do you ever judge the sketchiness of your own scenario for geological events?
You've said nothing here that suggests you need to know more than the relative ages of the intrusive rocks, not actual age. Since actual ages are always assigned you are in the habit of taking them for real, but in practical reality you could do without them.
Well, at least you are consistently wrong. I didn't say that relative ages were available to tell which is younger. And what if both intrusive bodies were too old or too young? How would we know?
Edited by Admin, : Add missing close quote dBCode.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 3:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 12:58 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 287 of 740 (734335)
07-28-2014 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Faith
07-28-2014 4:02 AM


Re: New depositions strangely different from old strata
I would think it would be a lot harder to accumulate that much sand in one place on the Old Earth model than on the Flood model. In the Flood the water would do a lot of pulverizing as well as transporting and depositing. Where's all that sand going to come from over hundreds of millions of years? Can you identify a source on the South American continent and a method for its deposition and compression to such a huge depth and breadth?
So, you are not going to answer my question?
Evasion noted.
Same tectonic event did different things in the two different locations: raised the plateau in South America, also in the Grand Canyon but there it also had a volcano (or two or three?) working with it and the rocks got tilted and metamorphosed in various ways.
So, deformation occurred at the GC in Precambrian time but not at Roraima?
What I said was that the HUGENESS isn't going to be repeated, of course there will always be sand and I suppose some sandstone created from it, just nothing on this huge scale.
Again, that was not my question. What process caused the huge accumulation of sandstones at Roraima?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 4:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 12:38 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 288 of 740 (734336)
07-28-2014 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Faith
07-28-2014 3:37 AM


Re: Order of events as shown on cross sections
ABE: Here's what I mean: if for instance the cross section shows a stack of layers with a magma dike running from the Precambrian rocks at the very bottom to the Tertiary at the very top and spilling over the top, then we can conclude that the strata were all there first and then the volcanic event occurred.
Again, you assume that there was only one event. What about intrusives that do not penetrate into the Paleozoic and are actually cut off at the unconformity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 3:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 12:35 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 310 of 740 (734376)
07-28-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
07-28-2014 12:35 PM


Re: Order of events as shown on cross sections
I seriously doubt that. I'm quite certain that your mind is closed on the subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 12:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 3:50 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 314 of 740 (734381)
07-28-2014 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
07-28-2014 12:50 PM


Re: Cardenas
I wasn't including the Precambrian rocks in my statement.
Of course not. But I think that you mean to say that you do not include any data that is contrary to your odd ideas about historical geology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:00 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 315 of 740 (734383)
07-28-2014 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Faith
07-28-2014 3:50 PM


Re: Order of events as shown on cross sections
As long as there is only interpretive evidence (erosional surfaces that could be explained some other way, especially considering that the whole formation was tilted as a block) I'll hold on to my theory.
And your evidence is not 'interpretive'?
Oh, that's right! You don't have any evidence.
Why not tell us why our evidence is wrong, rather than just making unsupported assertions?
But I do want some good evidence for it.
That was provided. Where have you been?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 3:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:15 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 316 of 740 (734384)
07-28-2014 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Faith
07-28-2014 3:56 PM


Re: Cardenas
That late in the Flood volcanism could already have started in some places. As I said I'll think about it. I have my mind elsewhere at the moment.
So, you assume that there was a fludde? And yet you have the nerve to complain that we make assumptions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 3:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 7:54 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 320 of 740 (734390)
07-28-2014 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
07-28-2014 8:00 PM


Re: Precambrian
No, I don't need the Precambrian, I can make my point just about the span from the Cambrian to the Tertiary, ...
Of course you don't need it. It refutes your position that everything happened after all sedimentary depositon was over...
,,, which I've done at times, or I can even fall back on the Creationist position that says the Flood started at the Tapeats, though I really don't like that position.
QED...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:20 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 322 of 740 (734392)
07-28-2014 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by Faith
07-28-2014 8:15 PM


Re: Order of events as shown on cross sections
Seems to me I've said it awfully frequently that both sides can only interpret when it comes to the prehistoric past.
But only one side can produce evidence.
An example of your interpretation is that the Cardenas exhibits erosional surfaces.
Well, the evidence is that it looks like erosional surfaces that we see today. But that isn't all, really...
We see pieces of the underlying rock in the Cardenas and we also see a baked lower contact and weathering effects.
That's evidence but only of an interpretive sort since you don't know if there might be another way that happened.
If you have a better interpretations, I'm all ears.
Your interpretation is pretty good I'm sure, but it is only an interpretation.
And what have you got?
And I suggested one of my own when I mentioned above that the formation was tilted as a block, which could shift and abrade unsolidified sediments.
Except that we don't see evidence of shearing...
Or maybe you have some? I'd love to see it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:23 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 324 of 740 (734394)
07-28-2014 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
07-28-2014 7:54 PM


Re: Cardenas
But my assumptions aren't my own or human-originated assumptions ...
You get them from non-humans?
I KNOW there was a worldwide Flood because I know the Bible is nothing but truth.
Still an interpretation. How do you know that 'global' was not just the 'known world'...
I'd say your idea is highly interpretive.
That doesn't mean I can say I *know* exactly how it happened, though. All that is just the speculative part, the part I try to figure out at EvC, though I think some of the speculations are pretty solid.
I haven't seen that part yet.
And for the most part it's fun too, except when geologists and others get all mad and snarky about it because some of what they think contradicts God.
Maybe what you are thinking actually contradicts God. After all, it is just an interpretation of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 7:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:28 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 326 of 740 (734396)
07-28-2014 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
07-28-2014 7:54 PM


Re: Cardenas
But your assumptions are all human-originated, ...
So are yours.
... and to the extent they are about the prehistoric past they're all speculations too, mostly untestable hypotheses, without any divine revelation to tell you youre even on the right track.
Why do I need divine revelation? Isn't that a potential source of interpretive error?
... Which, of course, you're not unfortunately, about the Old Earth part of Geology. Again, no problem with the Observational Science which is the practical part of geologic work.
I would be glad to see your interpretation of radiometric ages and the contact relationships at the Great Unconformity...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 7:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 327 of 740 (734397)
07-28-2014 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Faith
07-28-2014 8:28 PM


Re: Cardenas
You are not in a position to tell me what contradicts God. Don't go there.
Why not? What if I told you that I actually had a conversation with God the other day?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:49 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 328 of 740 (734398)
07-28-2014 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
07-28-2014 8:23 PM


Re: Order of events as shown on cross sections
If your interpretation is correct I'll eventually come to see that it's correct ..,
No. You will not. It is impossible for facts to overcome a belief system that is based on religious myth.
... but in the meantime I have to sift through all the information myself looking for alternative views. Sorry, I know you think I should just take your word for it but I have to see it for myself. Everybody here tries to railroad me into accepting what they present as the scientific view of something or other, when I'm just beginning to get a picture of the situation. Then it turns out that some of the stuff they say is wackier than they think my ideas are. You aren't going to be wrong in those ways I'm sure, but I still have no problem thinking a geologist could be wrong because I KNOW you're wrong about the fact that there was a worldwide Flood.
Thank you for making my point. Religious belief always trumps actual knowledge. It also ignores evidence.
And no one is trying railroad you. All they want you (or someone else reading this thread) to do is think twice before making foolish statements. We know it will not stop you, but that would be a start.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 07-28-2014 8:51 PM edge has replied

  
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