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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List')
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 751 of 1049 (733934)
07-22-2014 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by hooah212002
07-22-2014 8:51 PM


Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
The entire issue is what standard should be held.
Obviously, creationists do not hold the same standard for criteria as to what constitutes evidence as do others. If everyone had precisely the same standards, there would be minor debate. Besides, having to defend your positions makes you ever stronger in your beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by hooah212002, posted 07-22-2014 8:51 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by Coyote, posted 07-22-2014 11:09 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 753 by hooah212002, posted 07-22-2014 11:20 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 754 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2014 1:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 752 of 1049 (733935)
07-22-2014 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 751 by Phat
07-22-2014 10:42 PM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
Obviously, creationists do not hold the same standard for criteria as to what constitutes evidence as do others. If everyone had precisely the same standards, there would be minor debate. Besides, having to defend your positions makes you ever stronger in your beliefs.
The problem I see is when belief is substituted for evidence, and then defended in spite of contrary evidence.
And to compound the problem, they claim it to be science in spite of it being the exact opposite of science.
You can't have it both ways. Either you adhere to the standards of science, or you don't. I know a lot of creationists and other apologists want to have the good reputation of science associated with their beliefs, but it just doesn't work that way. You have to earn your reputation, whether it is for science as a whole or any particular branch.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Phat, posted 07-22-2014 10:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 753 of 1049 (733936)
07-22-2014 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 751 by Phat
07-22-2014 10:42 PM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
The entire issue is what standard should be held.
There are forum standards already in place that certain people are free to violate as long as they are in a minority and are "persecuted" enough. Standards like: backing up your claims with actual evidence, making substantial comments/replies that are on topic and productive, not cherry picking comments to pull out insignificant details that serve ONLY to halt discussion while openly ignoring significant parts of that message. Yes, most everyone here is guilty of all those things. However, none of the admin staff make a post to say it is ok for Dr. Adequate to do it or to stop being so mean to edge or coragyps. Moose never posts about how NoNukes should lay off Tangle.
But whenever a certain subsection of the user base starts posting incessantly without really thinking or contributing, let alone READING WHAT IS BEING SAID TO THEM, the rest of the use base are the ones at fault. The rest of the user base, the members that take the time to post full fledged, well thought out, reasoned and researched replies, gets admonished for not doing so at the third grade level appropriate for those certain creationists to understand.
Obviously, creationists do not hold the same standard for criteria as to what constitutes evidence as do others. If everyone had precisely the same standards, there would be minor debate. Besides, having to defend your positions makes you ever stronger in your beliefs.
The standard of evidence is not at all what I was talking about and is a whole other complete topic for debate. What the hell made you think that was what I was referring to?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Phat, posted 07-22-2014 10:42 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 755 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2014 3:34 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 754 of 1049 (733940)
07-23-2014 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 751 by Phat
07-22-2014 10:42 PM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
And yet - as we've seen just lately - Faith would like to ban posters who prove her wrong and censor all criticism of creationists, while retaining the right to slander anyone who dares to tell truths she doesn't like.
It's not much of a stretch to say that Creationism is an idolatrous cult and that all too many creationists feel that they are entitled to be worshipped.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Phat, posted 07-22-2014 10:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 755 of 1049 (733946)
07-23-2014 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 753 by hooah212002
07-22-2014 11:20 PM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
But whenever a certain subsection of the user base starts posting incessantly without really thinking or contributing, let alone READING WHAT IS BEING SAID TO THEM, the rest of the use base are the ones at fault.
I think the Creationist get some extra leeway because they are, by and large, incapable of defending themselves properly in the science forum. They must evade, miss the point (deliberately or helplessly) use bad arguments, and insist that they are misunderstood. The result ought to be that Creationists function as a foil for those providing proper arguments. It is the rare creationist that is not easy pickings even when the topic is history or the Bible.
But then we screw that up by acting badly ourselves. We make bad arguments, call each other names, and generally make it difficult to defend the proposition that Creation Science makes no case. I'm as guilty as anyone else of jumping the shark.
If everyone had precisely the same standards, there would be minor debate.
This statement of Phat's however is just flat out wrong. If everyone had the same standard for participation, the arguments would quickly get to the point. Nobody's mind would change, but the core areas of difference would be identified.
Moose never posts about how NoNukes should lay off Tangle.
Interesting example. But, yes I've been pretty tough on some non Creationists. Maybe I should have let go of Tangle a bit more quickly.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by hooah212002, posted 07-22-2014 11:20 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2014 3:49 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 758 by hooah212002, posted 07-23-2014 4:19 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 762 by ringo, posted 07-23-2014 11:53 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 756 of 1049 (733947)
07-23-2014 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by NoNukes
07-23-2014 3:34 AM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
Tangle writes:
Interesting example. But, yes I've been pretty tough on some non Creationists. Maybe I should have let go of Tangle a bit more quickly.
Don't start patronising anyone. I'm quite happy to ignore you when you're being a dick.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2014 3:34 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2014 3:58 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 757 of 1049 (733948)
07-23-2014 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by Tangle
07-23-2014 3:49 AM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
Don't start patronising anyone. I'm quite happy to ignore you when you're being a dick.
Wasn't trying to be patronizing. If I told you that you were still wrong about Popper's position would that help? Is that patronizing enough?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 756 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2014 3:49 AM Tangle has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 758 of 1049 (733949)
07-23-2014 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by NoNukes
07-23-2014 3:34 AM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
But then we screw that up by acting badly ourselves. We make bad arguments, call each other names, and generally make it difficult to defend the proposition that Creation Science makes no case. I'm as guilty as anyone else of jumping the shark.
Yes, I agree. But in my opinion, allowing them such leeway seems to be leading some of them on to believe that those tactics are actually valid and acceptable forms of discussion. It's a bit like allowing a young kid to be a little shit because it's cute, then they grow up to be a little shit because no one ever said it wasn't cute anymore. At what point does it actually become patronizing to "openly" admit that we are pandering to creationists and not holding them up to the same standards, thereby degrading the level of discourse since it already starts at such a low level for entry? Is not the point of standards for communication to ensure these debates maintain focus and stick to tangible topics? If there isn't a level playing field, that (quite obviously) leaves far to much room for the discussion to turn into pot shots just to keep it going since the information flow is either one sided or non existent. When one side is held to a rigorous standard that the other side can openly and admittedly ignore and "faithfully" (that is, being well within their own forum standard) act as though your completely credible and well researched evidence is garbage while admitting they didn't even read it or won't take the time to understand some of the "big" words, what is left but snark and more pot shots? How long can that be advantageous to anyone?
[shitty life story rant]
Maybe I hold EvC to a higher standard than I should. However, it is thanks to this forum that I am finding college (I am half way through my first ever college class as we speak) much easier because I have 3 essays due in the next month that require sources and source material and it is like second nature (note that I found EvC right around the time I became and atheist and don't really discuss evolution or atheism shit to any high level elsewhere). I've always found this to be the place that, while it is allowed and there is quite a bit of leeway for it, truly shitty comments and general internet trollery regarding these topics is frowned upn and the discussions are high brow, relatively speaking.
[/shitty life story rant]
(note that I am doing all I can to not single out Faith even though it is painfully obvious that she is the sole purpose for this rant, but others are equally party to it)
Interesting example. But, yes I've been pretty tough on some non Creationists. Maybe I should have let go of Tangle a bit more quickly.
I didn't mean to single you out, per se, and I actually like that the evo side (religious or non alike) are still open to criticizing one another. It shows the fundies the true nature of the skeptic/scientific mind: question shit regardless of the source. I only mentioned that interaction because it was fresh in my mind.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2014 3:34 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 760 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2014 9:23 AM hooah212002 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 759 of 1049 (733954)
07-23-2014 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 750 by Faith
07-22-2014 10:03 PM


Re: Getting picked on by a gang
I've posted messages describing the information, arguments and evidence for sedimentary deposits accumulating atop geologic columns consisting only of sedimentary layers, which is your definition of a geologic column. Please give the messages a read when you have some time: Message 15 and Message 45
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Faith, posted 07-22-2014 10:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 760 of 1049 (733955)
07-23-2014 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 758 by hooah212002
07-23-2014 4:19 AM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
act as though your completely credible and well researched evidence is garbage while admitting they didn't even read it or won't take the time to understand some of the "big" words, what is left but snark and more pot shots? How long can that be advantageous to anyone?
When creationist resort to that, it is as close as they are going to come to acknowledging defeat. It can be frustrating, but few people ever admit defeat on the internet. At least that's been my experience since the early nineties.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 758 by hooah212002, posted 07-23-2014 4:19 AM hooah212002 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 761 of 1049 (733959)
07-23-2014 11:31 AM


I think the 48-hour suspensions of PaulK and Faith are too much.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 762 of 1049 (733960)
07-23-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by NoNukes
07-23-2014 3:34 AM


Re: Debate & Discussion Are The Fruits Of This Place
NoNukes writes:
But, yes I've been pretty tough on some non Creationists.
I, for one, am happy to take on all comers.
Creationists, in general, are poor thinkers (or they wouldn't be creationists), so they'e not much of a challenge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2014 3:34 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 763 of 1049 (733964)
07-23-2014 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by Adminnemooseus
07-22-2014 8:32 PM


Re: Getting picked on by a gang
Right, its no surprise that she get's the responses that she does when she behaves the way she does.
It doesn't surprise me that Faith sometimes gets cranky.
I'm not talking about her behaving crankily.
I'm talking about her drawing a lot of time and effort from others, who offer her detailed explanations of complicated scientific principles, only for her to turn it back around on them as some sort of support for her pre-conceived religious beliefs.
She's using people. People don't like being used. I understand why they get tired of her shit.
Imagine yourself (as in any of the evo side) being in a debate in a creationist dominated forum, and you are the one against the many. Even if "the many" go about it nicely (and here, the evo side sometimes does come up short on that), there is a substantial pressure on you, and you'd be liable to get cranky.
Been there, done that. Against both creationists and evolutionists. Hell, look at the gun control thread. I can't ask a question without being accused of denial. And the best is arguing with Catholics on their forums only to have them end the argument with: "You can't be a Catholic, then."
Sure, its annoying. But we're on the internet. If you can't maintain a level head, then you need to get offline.
One side of the argument being cranky doesn't justify the other side getting cranky. I don't care who started it, you should be nice to your opponent. If you can't be such, maybe you shouldn't be posting that reply.
Its not her crankiness that draws crankiness, its the horrible way she treats people, i.e. using them for her own purposes.
So no, people aren't "picking" on her. She's being a bitch and getting the responses we should expect.
On a side note, one thing I could try doing, is a hard core enforcement of the forum rules.
We know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-22-2014 8:32 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by Percy, posted 07-23-2014 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 764 of 1049 (733970)
07-23-2014 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 763 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2014 12:21 PM


Re: Getting picked on by a gang
I agree that Faith treats many people very badly. The way she usually does this is to encourage people into great explanatory efforts, after which she variously ignores or lambastes them. When cornered she invents a crisis so that discussion of the topic ceases. Like now.
I also agree about the denial. Faith peering out from her creationist mindset can no more discern true reality and science than could ancient astronomers peering out from Earth to figure out the solar system.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 12:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by edge, posted 07-23-2014 4:26 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 768 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 10:44 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 765 of 1049 (733971)
07-23-2014 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by Adminnemooseus
07-22-2014 8:32 PM


Re: Getting picked on by a gang
Adminnemooseus writes:
Imagine yourself (as in any of the evo side) being in a debate in a creationist dominated forum, and you are the one against the many.
Imagine you were Napoleon but nobody believed you. You might expect the hospital administration to put all of the staff in straight-jackets - but then the hospital administration are all crazy too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-22-2014 8:32 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
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